Why You Shouldn't Give Players What They Want | Edmund McMillen (The Binding of Isaac, Mewgenics)

SPEAKER_01 0:00

The reason why a lot of triple A games just suck is because they are just just playing it safe, because that's usually what people are requesting. I think most designers have to design from a perspective of father or mother, where you don't want to give your kids candy all day. Cause they all they want is candy. That's all they beg for and and they they really want it. And sometimes they're so sincere about it, but you know they're gonna go crazy. You know it's bad for them. You don't want to you want to choose when you give it to them so they have that like memory of, oh, remember that that time, the end of the day after the boardwalk. I got an ice cream cone and it was so delicious. You won't have an experience that you will carry with you for the rest of your life unless there's some amount of like turmoil or strife. Uh emotions are important in art. You need to be able to pull them out of people.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Hey there, my name is Stephen Lake, and welcome to the Examined Game. Today I am talking with Edmund McMillan, the creator of The Binding of Isaac, Super Meat Boy, more recently, Mugenics, which he spent a very, very, very long time working on, and that game has been an absolute runaway success for him. I first came across Edmund when I show him in a documentary called Indie Game The Movie. I strongly recommend watching it. He's one of the many contributors to that film, and we're meeting him predating the full release of Super Meat Boy. It's interesting to look back at someone in that early stage of their career and then talk with them right now on the release of Mugenix. Mugenix was such a brilliant and out there game, and I just wanted to talk with Edmund about the process he went through in creating that. And what I love about speaking with him is this idea of just having your head down and working to effectively please yourself. And if you can do that well with a game, then you're probably going to do that for others. We also got a chance to look at his most played Steam games, and the answer was uh surprising, but then not in some ways when you think about it. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

I am playing well, I played a bunch of games that I had never played before. Um I never played, so uh like a friend and you know, somebody I kind of grew up with uh making video games, uh Mass Off showed me his latest game, which was called Blood Dungeon, and um it was described as like a vampire survivors like, but I realized and I'll and I enjoyed it. Um and then I realized I never played vampire survivors, so I played that. I did not enjoy that. Um and I really don't understand. I mean, I get it, I get it. But oh my god, I've never played a game, and I'm I apologize, but you know, they've had enough success in saying these things. But I've never played a game where for the first 15-20 minutes of playing it, I'm like excited, and then for the rest of the game, I'm questioning if I should just turn the game off. Because there's nothing, I'm getting nothing, and at the end I feel like I've wasted my time. Like it made me go, like, oh my god, did I because I I always question, like, did I did I do this? Is this my fault? Like, this is because the binding of Isaac was very similar to this formula, but this you strip you literally strip out every um agency outside of like a few button presses and moving around, right? Um and I I was trying to avoid that, but I remember when designing the binding original binding of Isaac, um a few of our testers used to play in debug mode, and they would just give give themselves a bunch of items and then walk through the game, and they would say how fun it is. And my whole argument was and they wanted more, and I was like, But yeah, but then you'll have nothing, like there's no feeling of you doing anything, it's just the game is playing itself, you do nothing, and it's gonna feel terrible. And then I was confronted face to face with exactly that design, and I'm like, geez, man. I get it, I get why that works, totally understand, but man, did that feel bad.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Um, I think I think what you described described like you said like 15 to 20 minutes. My experience was in a way the the exact same. It was just like it it's either 15 to 20 minutes, or it's 15 to 20 hours, or it's like 150 to 200 hours, uh depending on how how into that game someone gets. And then and then you hit that point. I had like a weekend where I played that non-stop with my stepdaughter, and we probably it was probably like almost like 12 hours in two sessions, and as soon as it tipped over, I was like, what on earth is this? And I just couldn't touch ever again.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

But I guess it's the the beauty of being a game designer is I can see. I get it, I know what you're gonna I know what to expect. Like, I know what you're gonna do, you're gonna stream me along with a carrot, and there's gonna be this, this, and this as it goes. But there wasn't actually enough, like I mean, it quite literally is like if you do this song and dance, then we will pull the slot machine lever again for you, and you'll get rewarded with something. The rewards weren't rewarding enough for me to care about the next one. Um I liked I liked the blood dungeon one more because I had I felt like I was doing more. You actually like had to move around because it's like a platformer. Um, what else did I play? There's a game called like I think it's called Sol Sesto. Is that I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right. I I I enjoyed that. The art style was really good. Um let me look at my Steam recently played.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

It's uh give us a Steam.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

I played Ball Pit. Same game. I feel fucking terrible for even saying that. But it's but it's the it is the truth. Um I played Mecha Chameleon, you know, I get it. Totally understand. Um uh what else did I play? I played Noida. Noida's good. I really I really like Noida. Um, very cool, very vast, a lot to do, a lot to think about. I played a bit of Caves of Cud. Um what else? I played Men of the Howler. It didn't grab me, but I'm I'll probably go back in later. I've been trying to play video games because I really don't play many video games at all um lately. But the game I'm playing the most is still Overwatch. That's just the one like it's it's my shooter, it's the thing I like to fall back on when I'm what am I supposed to do? It's either Magic the Gathering on Arena or Magic the Gathering online or Magic the Gathering real life. Um and if I can't do those things, then I'll just jump into a game of um of Overwatch, and then it's it's fine.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Yeah, I was actually curious if if you had your literal steam up. I was I was interested if you if you changed the order there to most most hours played. What are the games that how do you do that? Is it just uh I'm not I'm not actually I can't remember off the top of my head. I'm just realizing tags, language, players for uh uh something just just just voyeurism on people's.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

They're sort by recent activity. I mean, this is interesting to me too, so um help me. Uncategorized.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

I see I I don't know if I've done it for myself because I know sometimes I'll nosy on my friends, and like you spent like 300 hours playing.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Well it's gonna be, I mean, we're we can't count my games that I made because I'm I'm developing them on Steam, so they're gonna have thousands of hours. But um where where is it? There's gotta be a I'm in my library right now and I'm seeing sort by, but it says library filters, and you can sort by by by by um most recently playing. That's about it.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

So I've got like recently played, then if I click all games and then I can click playtime. All games.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

All where are you seeing the playtime?

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Um it's like it's like so there's the there's all the games and then there's the the little search box to the left and to the right. Yeah um there's playtime name and then achievement completion.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Um But not is it it's not in library filters?

SPEAKER_00 8:23

No, it's just like it's on a little um Okay, I sort by recent activity. I'm curious. Let me try and um uh installed on this computer.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

I'm not why am I not getting what you're getting? I'm seeing all. I'm right at this.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Let me share.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Yeah, show me okay. So you're in you're in okay, I see where you're at now. I was in I was in the library tab.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

You should leave this all in. This is great. This is great quality.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

This will this all really help the CTR for the uh the retention rate or go through the roof.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Uh I just have to have to get to all games. Now where's that? I just have recent activity when I click this tab.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Oh really? So you're yeah, you click there, and then oh wait. Yeah, so okay, okay, okay, okay. Done. And then so you see at the bottom here all recent all all recently played. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

And then all games.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

All games.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

And then playtime. Okay, get this. My number one is this game called Mugenics, and I have 2,252 hours. Then it's the Bighting of Isaacs, 602 hours. Then it's Super Meat Boy, 415 hours. Then is this game called Overwatch, which is 351 hours. Then it's Balatro with 247 hours, then it's Fingered, another game I made with 141. Then the end is nigh with 100. Yeah, this makes sense. Okay, I'm not gonna say my games because that's stupid. So it's number one's Overwatch with 350, uh, number two is Bilatro with uh roughly 250, then it's Spelunky with uh 122, then it's Little Nightmares, which I played with my daughter, which was uh, and then she played a bunch too, which is about 90 hours, then UFO 50, which was uh 80 hours, then it's Slay the Spire 2, which was 70 hours, then Slay the Spire, which is roughly the same. Borderlands 2 with 56 hours, then the first Little Nightmares with 50, Sponky 2, 50, Elden Ring 50, Wasteland 40, Battlefield, uh, and Goat Simulator has got 32 hours on here, then Half-Life 2 and Stalker, Stalker 2 inside, and Hades with a whopping 20 hours.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

I I agree that was very generous of you to share that.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

I'm interested. I'm interested. Oh right right under that is uh the blood blood dungeon game and baby steps.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

And and that's okay, and those are those are those are obviously pretty recent, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:07

So I actually play more I play way more board games than I do video games.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Yeah, it's a shame.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Yeah, I mean I roughly we play well, we play every Friday for about five hours, and um every other Saturday for about four hours, we play Magic. So I mean you could just say I play like roughly ten hours of board games a week. That's a good, that's a good uh that's my break time. Yeah, I need to ref refuel.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

It was interesting actually hearing you you give your your uh game hours because mugenics had a uh uh a hell of a lot. That was that was a really high com compared to uh Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Um was that just is that just literally based on like things for development and and you know, yeah, it's a it was a longer.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Um we were up on Steam at least for the last four years of development, so you know, a good four years of development time and the game's open when I'm working on it at least 50% of the time. So yeah. Uh I I play tested the hell out of that game more than any game I'd ever made.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

I believe you. I believe you. You know when you read a Steam review and the person's got like 2,000 hours, you're like, I believe them. You could literally just great. I'm I'm glad uh I'm glad we we we we got into that.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Um I've never done it before. You're the first.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

It would actually be a not not to be like you know, uh clickbait crazy, but it would actually be a good little format of of hearing hearing devs just run down their um their uh Steam accounts, you know, play times of things. Um because because it it is interesting that, right? Because and it was something I wanted to talk with you about, and maybe we'll get into it on now or or later, but you know, there's you're making the game, people are playing the games, right? And um there's this sort of you you and the player are both looking at the same coin with different faces, right? Um and I'm just curious what what I like about hearing you run off the games you've played, is that something that like we all have in common, right? Whether you're making the game or whether you're playing the game, we're all racking up hours on Steam. And I guess what I was interested in was you know, when you spend such a long time on a game and then you release it out into the world, like do you do you feel like you'll you'll you'll ever really sort of truly be able to understand like the player's position in playing your game and vice versa?

SPEAKER_01 13:58

No, no, I mean not all not yeah, no, but um I like to design games where I can enjoy the game almost as much as the player. Um because I make I like to make games that are that feel dynamic and give you a billion choices and make you feel like you are in control and every run is different completely. So I know that when I do a run, nobody else is experiencing the same thing. That's a completely unique experience to me, and the choices that I make um matter. So I think I get I'd like to think that I can kind of see see it the way everyone else sees it. Obviously, like when it comes to lore and story and theme and stuff, I can s I I'm doesn't do anything for me because I wrote it. But um when it comes to gameplay, this yeah, the stuff that actually really matters. Um I think uh I think I I get it and enjoy it almost as much as maybe other people do. But it helps me be realistic about it too. Like I think I can be pretty brutally honest about the shortcomings of my work and um where things work, where things don't, what I can do better, where I can improve, uh grow kind of as a designer. Um because I play them and I play them as if I were a player.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

I I wonder if that sort of is is that a good explainer, you think, for for why you know you you've had a pretty good hit rate, I would say, on the games that you've put out into the world. Um and it it sounds as if you're sort of you're making them you're you know, you're sort of trying to please yourself when you're making these games. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Yeah, I'm absolutely I was actually actually having this talk with my wife recently because I'm at a point in my life I'm you know, I just turned um 46 and I have two kids, and I know a lot of people you know in adjacent industries that are bigger icons than me. Much bigger. Um but a lot of them struggle with chasing a a dollar, you know, you know what I mean? And there's I don't know, it's just it's a weird situation to kind of be in where you're talking to these people who you are I just feel like are so much more influential and huger just overall and whatever else, and then like what why aren't they still creating stuff? I don't know, just weird stuff like that. And uh the the answer that I always had is just this this I'm being really honest when I say the only reason I'm making this stuff is for me, for self-preservation. Like I need to create to be happy, to stay happy, I need to do this. This is a requirement. And I'm only jud being judged by myself, and I'm only trying to make something better than something I previously have done, and I'm really brutal when it comes to that. Like I I think for the most part I would I would rate myself more harshly than most critics. Um, and I think it gives me a pretty realistic idea of where a game is at uh when I'm developing it and the potential the potential it has. Um and I just and I really just don't care other than that. Like I only care about just about making myself happy and doing something I'm proud of. Nothing else matters, and the money comes with it. It it just happened, it worked. Um obviously I'm trying to think about how to market these things in order to make them because I want as many people to play them as possible. Um that it makes me happy to know that other people I'm an entertain I'm an entertainer in some you know weird way, you know. That's I really want to entertain people, um, and it makes me very happy to be able to do so. Um, and that's a motivator too to finish and you know put stuff out there. But the reality is I uh the thing that really puts me apart from most other other artists is I think I really honestly doing this just for myself. And and I'm only going by my own rating system and I don't care about anything else.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

But it it it it's like a system that works, right? Clearly. I guess I I can't ask so far.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

I mean, it doesn't always work. Sometimes I like to make stuff that admittedly I know isn't gonna be the greatest thing in the world, but I have to make it just because it was it's fun to do and and and put it out there, and I've released stuff that I'm really not that proud of. Um but I feel like I know when when something has. Like I knew that mugenics had potential back in 2012 when I started the prototype for it, and that's why I invested so much time and money and effort into it, is because I felt like I knew that this was an important thing that I needed to do, regardless of how financially viable it will be in the end. I invested a lot, I mean I invested more money in that project than any project. Um and a lot of people backed away from it. I mean, that's initially what happened from the original prototype. Like it it got locked in limbo because I was the only person who felt like it could do well.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Do you did your confidence ever falter in those moments? Or again, based on that that system you have where you're okay, you're you're it sounds uh a bit self-sidens say you're pleasing yourself, but to be, you know, you want to see this thing exist, you know it's got potential, it's something you're gonna enjoy playing. When things get sticky and tough, are you sort of so dead set on like, well, I just want to see what this is gonna look like that you just blaze forward and find a way.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Yeah, it's if it's just a project that I want to see finished, then I'm I do it. I just do it. Um I I I think I'm more like the type that's like if I'm going through development and I'm being like, okay, like this isn't God, I'm being I I took put do not disturb on my goddamn sorry. I don't want to hear these.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

I think do not disturb is this sort of semi-selective thing.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

It's like ultimately just turned off randomly. Um say what was I saying? Um what was I saying?

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Well, I was asked about you know those moments when when people might fall off or enthusiasm might wane outside of yourself, like if you have a altar.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

There's there's a bunch of I think it's just a part of any project. Like all I think all projects will run into usually situations where the project becomes a work and boring and kind of terrible in some some way. And um, I've I made a lot of a lot of projects. I've been I've been making projects for myself since I was like 13. Um, and I think over time I just learned how to treat myself like a player and reward myself and withhold things. So like I just don't overindulge in things that I know that I will consume with within a couple days. You know what I mean? Like I could sit down and write a grand story and all these cool characters, and I could design all this other stuff. But then when you ask me to implement it when I've already had it all finished, there's no excitement, there's no wonder, there's no wiggle room. It's all sol it's all there, it's done, and it and it like kills it for me. And I think most other people it kills it too. So I tried to design really loose uh And don't plan too far ahead unless it's stuff that's like technical. Um, but when it comes to the creative side of things, I I don't want to lock it down because I know that the game will show me what it wants as I develop, as as it has every for every game I've ever made. It's the the magic is is within the project kind of like connecting as you build it and then realizing that oh, this is built, this is turning into this beautiful structure. I can help it become more elegant if I do it this way. Um and that's exciting. It keeps motivation up, it keeps the project feeling like it's alive. Um, so I try to design all my projects that way where I'm like, let's just rough it out and get the rough pieces in, and then just wiggle our way through as we and as we go, we can just start pulling things together, and if they make sense, then we design something else here and design something else there, and the game finds itself, and and then you're not stuck in a situation where you're like, ah god, I've I all the stuff's on paper, and I have to now you know what like type it all out. Like it's not like I don't want to be that's not what I want to do. Um, I I want to have the freedom to improvise in uh an otherwise area of artistry that's really never improvised in. You know, you usually have to plan ahead and lock all that shit down. But that's what being independent like gives you. Like in a company, this would never work. I would have to have everything on paper, everything would be locked in in spreadsheets, and everyone would be on the exact same page of what we were doing, and we would have to keep it that way because if we said, oh wait, no, this would be better like this, and they were like, Well, well, we've fucking invested God knows how much money and how much time and effort of everybody to do this, and this would set us back. Our deadline that we've locked in would be fucked up, and it's just like I I I just like love being in the situation where I can just do whatever and do do what feels right in the moment, even if it it brings us a few steps back, um, and not have to lock down a date because profits and we're losing money and whatever else. I just keep it cheap and work with a friend and have fun doing it. It's it's kind of insane to think that like realistically mugenics was worked on full-time um for the last four years, but really six years in total, um, and uh roughly a team of ten throughout those four years, and there was never an issue. No one ever had a problem. It was always fun. I woke up every day extremely excited and motivated to work. Um it was just a really fun project to finish, and I'm sure that would have been the opposite if I had planned everything out and said we're gonna get this done in two and a half years, and everybody just had work to do. I like to be able to tell the people I'm working with, here's what this character is, or here's what this thing is, you do you. I want you to have fun because it's gonna come through in the in the in the art. It's like when I say, okay, we need this new track for this area, um, when I'm talking to Matthias and Sean, um, ridiculon, uh, usually the email or or or th or conversation will be like, this is this area. This is what I'm feeling in this area. This is this is a um a link to two different like specific genres of music that I'd love to pilfer. This is what I like, um, this is what I want the player to feel. Go do your thing, and then we'll come back and they throw something out there, and there'll be like a line in a lyric that I think is really special, and I'm like, ah, and I take that and I pull that into the game, and I make it part of the game so it all feels interwoven into this like nice little package. But yeah, it's I think it's important to give all artists working on projects that kind of like creative freedom to do have fun in the world. Like I bring you because I love what you do, you do you in my world. Like, just do you, and that's what mugenics really is. It's a lot of people just having fun drawing and making art.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

I spoke with Alex Beecham from Outer Wilds, and he he talked a lot about emotional prototyping, as he puts it, and it it made me think about that. It's interesting hearing you both speak in very similar ways of that feeling it out thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:57

I think certain people, it works for certain people. I don't think everybody can really kind of do that. You gotta have that frame of mind. I think for I think for a lot of people it'd probably be really scary and overwhelming because it it is this is this this is scary. Scary to go in and being like, okay, we're gonna we're not gonna plan. We're gonna we're gonna just fly by the seat of our pants and trust, trust in the process and know that it's gonna be okay. And like any, like, like I said, like any any company, if you told them, here's my here's my rough idea, we're gonna fly by the seat of our pants, they would absolutely not do the project. It's just it's just a no. Um but that game's the Outer Wilds is really cool. I I I have to go back in and finish it. I'm I've been somehow spoiler-free all these years. And I've I played it um again with my daughter a few years ago, and um started to get in fairly deep where stuff was clicking, and I'm like, wait a minute, but I I'm not there yet. I need to go back in and and do it because of course work kind of pulled me away.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

That feels like a hard game to like you'd you'd have to sort of well, although that said, it all just resets again. Just you know, when you give space to a game, then you come back to it, and then you're like, what on earth is even like going on?

SPEAKER_01 28:14

No, yeah, I think with that one, I mean I everything's really fresh in my mind. They did such an amazing job of of what they were doing with it. Um, the world. I mean, it's it's just world building, like um, which I'm a absolutely huge fan of as well. Like I fuck a fuck a story. Like a story is you know, we've been doing that for forever, but in video games you can build a world, a living world with characters that can develop through gameplay. Um, and I think that's really cool and interesting. Um and that's uh I really enjoy doing that too. And Outer Wilds did that as well.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

I'm I'm interested to go back, you know, when you said about this instinct you had about mugenics back in 2012. I'm I'm curious, and and I'm also interested for your other projects as well. Like what is that earliest possible like thought or concept or idea or mechanic or approach or whatever when when a game is in its absolute you you couldn't even call it an early iteration, but I mean I'm interested what the thought was that that came up for that game.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Like what hooks me or just the general thought and when the when it comes to those games?

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Yeah, just just whatever it was that was happening way back in 2012.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Well, yeah, for for mugenics, it was a prototype for um so I had just finished Isaac, and the reason why I had made Isaac was because I wanted I was so incredibly inspired by Spelunky's way of taking a rogue the a roguelike and turning it into an action game, like an action roguelike. And um, I was like, oh my god, this is like an absolutely untouched new genre, um, and I would love to learn it. And I prototyped Isaac. The original Isaac was made in three months, so it was a super quick little project that I threw up on Steam, and it was initially there because uh I was planning on the next team meet game after Super Meat Boy was gonna be a roguelike, a big roguelike, like Spelunky. So Isaac was just like, hey, let's I'm gonna get used to this, get my feet in the water with this game, and so I could work on this bigger project. And the bigger project was gonna be mugenics, which was the prototype. Prototype was called A Thousand Cats, and um it was kind of based off of this I don't know what if you call it a joke or or what, but my wife had an ongoing bit of whenever I would start a new project that would mean me neglecting her, then she would need a cat. Um, and at that point we had four cats, and uh and she was dipping into more exotic cats, so um, we had two hairless cats, and I thought it was interesting, and there was a situation where she was kind of going through all these different breeders' websites and trying to find these cats, and the the value of the cats was how deformed they were, which I thought was very interesting. So you got these hairless cats, but then you've got these hairless cats um with uh they call them elf ears, which means the ears are folded backwards. Um there's also full folds, which means they fold forwards. Um, you've got these like uh a Devon Rex Sphinx, which means that their hair, they do have some hair and it's very stunted and like wavy. Um and then there are these the newest uh back then was they were called bambinos, which were hairless, hairless cats that had half legs, so like um dochin, like a like a wiener dog, right? Totally fucked up.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

So I didn't know I know no, I didn't know any of this until you've just got to.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Yeah, oh, and then the odd-eyed, so like you know, one blue eye, one one green eye, that sort of stuff too. Um so my wife ordered a bambino and or put put money down on bambino, and the and we it turned out the bambino had died um because its heart was all messed up, and uh it's just common. It's just and it's just I this is a whole industry, and there's just a lot of people that are into this sort of stuff, and I'm just like, wow, this is um an interesting moral conundrum here that I thought, hey, uh this is probably worth writing about. So it was it was a combination of of that experience and kind of poking fun at my wife and uh and our kind of hoarder lifestyle, as you can see in the background I had of a lot of things. I like stuff. Um, so it was a game about stuff, collecting stuff, and hoarding cats, and uh I didn't really know what it was. It it was it was just kind of a toy. All that existed then was the house hub. So you had this house you could upgrade, collect furniture, fill full of furniture, and breed your cats, which had this whole DNA simulation thing where you actually breed your cats together and visually they look like a combination of your parents. The cats had stats, and you would use them as avatars in like mini-games. And one of the mini games was a Pokemon fighting game, and that's about as far as we got. There was gonna be a cat race and beauty pageant and stuff like that. But the core idea was just here's a hub where there's this little simulation running, and the cats are doing cat stuff, and uh you use them as live systems in other games. And the world when I started to build out the world, I just started coming up with these characters that I thought were really interesting. Um and the themes that I wanted to like push into kind of was like I guess kind of looking at humanity, especially through through the lens of the breeding cats thing, and being like, wow, it's kind of funny how like in a lot of ways animals are just uh uh better than humans because humans don't like lie, torture, and manipulate, and you know, like our animals don't, and humans do. So humans are just going and pilfering and lying and stealing and manipulating and torturing and doing all this stuff um for their own personal gain gain, and animals are just honest and being like, look, we're animals, we're not lying to you, we're we're out, we're out for uh for us, and that's it, and we don't really care what we have to eat and what we have to do. This is this is just who we are, but humans will lie and say, you know, no, I there's I have a valid reason why I want to torture these cats and breed them in horrible ways. I don't know. It was again, it was just it was just an interesting interesting situation. So I wanted to make these characters that were all bad, like inherently bad and flawed, and I wanted to kind of push the stereotypes in each direction and really exaggerate, exaggerate that aspect of humanity, and like so you've got the like mad scientist who doesn't give a fuck about anybody but himself. It's like all these people who live in this world but aren't ever like none of the NPCs interact, um, and there's a reason because they they don't care, they're only they only care about themselves, and they're only interacting with themselves um and cats. Uh, and I thought all these characters were really fun, and I was like, wow, I I really excited to finish this game, and then it got canceled. Um, but I the world is what I really fell in love with. Like the world and kind of what I was talking about, like I just thought it was interesting. I just thought the whole concept was worth exploring, and it haunted me until I could start working on again. Like it was the game that I while working on Isaac, while working on Bumbo, the End is 9, and all that stuff. I was trying to figure out ways that I could legally like make the game again without having to use the IP until eventually I got the IP back and um, you know, got to dive back in and turn it into an actual game. But yeah, it just it just seemed ripe. I I it's hard to explain. It's just like sometimes I can see a concept and I could see that the wave is so huge that this will just carry me through years of development. And that was one of those projects where it's like, wow, this is so inspired, so interesting, so fun for me personally, that I could see myself investing years into it.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

The game exists because you wanted to make it and exist in that world and please yourself and enjoy you know that process. And then since since all of those things you end up with, you know, a project, a product that you can like stick on to Steam, that also means as a consequence of that endeavor, people then get to play it and enjoy it, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Yeah, I mean I w sometimes I think about how I wish I was a musician or I I wish I could make short short form art again, that I can just like sit down in a few hours and bust something out that feels like really from the heart and can reach people instantly, and I could I yeah, it's but I've chosen this really, really long-winded art form where um I can say a lot. I can say a lot, and I can build a world and whatever else, but it takes so long. It takes so long to finish that afterwards I'm I'm always left feeling a little like I don't know, envious or whatever of other artists being able to just scream into a microphone and express themselves that way, you know what I mean? Like that's why the why this? Like I started out making game making uh comics before I made games, and that that felt like a long-winded process, and that was nothing. It's like this just feels like, oh man. Okay, well, do what I can. I mean, I I don't I really don't want to work on another six-year project for quite a while, at least. Um but then it's like, well, you kind of put yourself up like either I have to make something so different than mugenics or binding of Isaac, um, or I'm put right against it. Like when making mugenics, it was like, well, I'm making something, it's not it's a totally different genre, but it's still roguelite-ish, and people are gonna put it right next to Isaac, and they're gonna complain that it doesn't have as many items, or it doesn't, it's like, and how are you gonna compare to this game that I've been working on for 10 years that I've been updating with this project that is much smaller? And uh, I tried, we really went went all in and tried to make it as big as possible, which I think we were able to achieve, but I can't do that again. I can't fucking fight with myself when it comes to that stuff. Like I need to I think I need to make more smaller, but smaller and interesting, but not so what people would expect, because I'm not gonna be able to beat what I've made without investing 10 years into the next one.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

And then I guess I'm curious, like for you, and I I think it's a f it can be a funny word, depending on how it's construed, but like what your definition of like whether a project has been successful for you, and if that's something that's just happening on a like you said, on a daily basis, like, hey, I'm getting to show up and work on this with people I enjoy working with, this is a success. Is it something that happens like the moment you finish the game, but before it even goes out into the world and has nothing to do with obviously say like we could talk about like physical success or things like that, has got nothing to do with how it's received, or is it something that's happening down the line once like you know, and it is to do with how pay it players and people in in engage with with the game?

SPEAKER_01 40:37

Yeah, I don't know. I guess there's just a bunch of other there's a bunch of successes. It's like I I felt like I felt like through development the game was already a success to me because it was doing it was achieving all the things that I set out to do um and was really cool, you know, release-wise, it was it was it ex very much exceeded my expectations when it came to sales. So success that success is was checked off. Um I think I can make it better, um, and that's what we're currently working on. So I mean, my my next I guess goal for success would be can I make it a game I'm extremely proud of? I'm very, very proud of it now. I I feel like it can be better with some expansions, so I want to be able to do that to kind of like really pat it out, um, like I did with Isaac. And then the final would be like Isaac is at a point now where I think so. I found out recently that Isaac had been selling better every year for the past 12 years. Wow. Um, which is crazy. Like super crazy, especially like you would you just would assume that like like five years ago it just started growing exponentially every year by like five to ten percent, um, which is bonkers. Is there any have you worked out the the logic behind this, or is this just something that's that's happening and it just I do don't know don't know incredible I I I think I don't I I noticed a bunch of new younger players playing on like Twitch and TikTok and stuff like that. So I know and we do little updates here and there, so it makes sense that like every year we'll probably put something up and then people talk about it and it kind of grows. Um and then uh two weeks ago we we did a Steam sale, um, which Steam recommended we do this extreme 90% off sale for the collection. Because the I don't think we'd ever put the collection up for more than 65% off. Um and they said that like interest is so high that we think that like the number of people viewing the pages and the wish lists and whatever else, um we think that everyone will buy it. Um and uh we're close to like four million sales um in the past coup two weeks. And the game has broken all of its own records as far as um number of active players. Can you just repeat the number of the number of the number? Which I think I peaked it.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Just repeat the number. I want to make sure that you definitely got it right and that I heard it right.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Four four million?

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Four million, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Yeah, four million sales in in two weeks for the summer sale. Um and yeah, but the more impressive thing is this, because everybody's like people will scoff because I I've seen like um I'm scrolling through TikTok now and seeing all these new players, which is really fun for me. Like seeing completely new green players that are learning from chat on how this game works, and they're playing it like it's just came out, um, which is so so neat. But you see people in the chat talking, they don't know I'm there, and uh they're like, Well, you know, this game's blowing up right now because it's five dollars. And it's like, well, sure. Yes, sure. But the thing is, is like there are people that are really playing the fuck out of this game. Like the peak, Isaac players was about 65,000 active players. That was at our highest point of the release of the last DLC five years ago. Um, at this point, four, yeah, five years ago. And it has been beaten every day. It's I think it's close, I think it's 156,000 active users currently. Um, and uh every day it beats that record by like a thousand more. Uh it's it's it's crazy the amount of people that are playing this game, and uh it's very uh it's that's a success. It's like the the idea that like this this game has kind of been locked in as a classic at this point, and that that many people are actively playing it, it puts it alongside games like Terraria or uh Stardew Valley or Minecraft or whatever else when it comes to a classic indie game that has a substantial number of people that are actively playing it. Um that's success to me. That's another barometer of success. And I hope like in you know it took 12 years for this. Um 12 years from now, with a bunch of DLC, we put the put Mugenix on sale for 90% off. And if it's if it can sell that many and beat its own active users, then I will also then say, okay, that one, that one, check that success off as well, and say that the game is would be considered a classic. I hope, I hope that eventually, you know, 10 years from now, the mugenics will be considered a classic, at least in the um turn-based strategy genre, because I do think it's one of the best. Um uh I did my research.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

There's something I wanted to, I don't want to pivot too off, but you know, I I reached out because of around, you know, like in in in indie game the movie, you know, which like um I saw years ago. But I guess it's just interesting to me. You've I just wonder how you you feel about your sort of career retrospectively.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

Yeah, the only the only difference from from that point compared to now is that I'm not worried about there there's very little in terms of thinking um should I mind my P's and Q's so I can pay rent? You know what I mean? Like I I'm just more free to say and do whatever I want, um which is great. It's it's very freeing as an artist to be able to be like if I'm hesitant to say or or or walk a line of a topic that you know I know will rub people the wrong way, or talk or include somebody in the game that people won't like that I can be at a point where I'm like, fuck it. Who cares? Like I don't care, like I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do, and that's that. Um have that kind of freedom for me is definitely a motivator. Uh, and I would like to push it more because there's still some hesitation when it came to mugenics because I'm still gambling with somebody else's future and money, like Tyler's future and money here. I'm not gonna I don't I'm not gonna fuck that up because I already kind of fucked it up once when we did The End is Nigh, and I refused to basically do press for it. Um I felt like I kind of fucked it up. Uh maybe I got a little cocky there, and assuming that like I don't need to talk about my game, I'll just put this new platformer out and then people glom onto it and play it, and that'll be fine, which I think was a it was a great achievement for me. Like, it's I think it's better than Super Meep Boy, but um I didn't do any press for it at all, and and the only person that felt that blow was Tyler because he just didn't, you know, make as much money. Uh so with this one I really did not want to uh fuck that one up. So I tried extra hard when it came to the stuff I don't really like, which is marketing and business and that sort of stuff. Tried to have as much fun with it as I possibly could, um, doing what I can and as much as I could uh to make it to make people just make sure people knew that it existed, which is all I really cared about, is showing the game and uh getting letting people know that it was it's in development and coming out here. Um but yeah, that's that's about it. And it'll be fun to work on whatever's next and not with Tyler and then we don't care about money at all. There's no there's no we can do whatever we want and make huge mistakes. It it's it's nice to to know the the idea of working on a project where we absolutely really don't care about anything, even about like the success or financial side of things. Like, you know, let's throw away half a million dollars um into a project that is just fun um that probably won't make that back. Uh whatever.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

I guess just something that makes me curious from what you just said there is like how introspective are you when it comes to like learning from like you say, mistakes or missteps, or like okay, this is how I did that this time, but maybe I'm gonna approach it differently.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

Um I'm always thinking about that stuff. I'm always thinking about all that stuff, like how to improve and how to optimize. And um I'm pretty chaotic when it comes to my design stuff, but I'm also pretty critical and always analyzing things and trying to figure out what works. That that stuff kind of scratches an itch in my brain. Um, so I do like to know that and try to improve where I can, what works, what doesn't, and then share that information with other people so they don't have to worry about it. Um yeah, I mean that's why I make DLCs and stuff too, so I can improve on what works and what didn't. We're running into a situation that we didn't foresee with mugenics, and you know, I thought that people would play the game and be done with it and then say that's it. But then much like Isaac, people can want to play it more, and they're trying to like do more and more and more. And we put these like really hard to reach things that aren't even achievements in the game, but that that do have a check mark on them, which are called like solo runs, that can really only be done by breaking the game, and we hid them in for though that personality type, but then too many people knew about them and finished the game, and they're like, I'm min-maxing this game, and uh there are these here are the problems. It's like then you're kind of stuck and be like, okay, we don't want to I don't want to make I don't want to refine a game for people who are a small demographic of the game, but I also don't want to like say fuck off and stop worrying about it. Um we're sort of trying to figure out like what are they really saying? Like what a what is the problem with the game after you've played 300 to 500 hours and you're doing all these crazy achievements? Where's the flaw? Where are the flaws in this design that that aren't working for people? And what do they really want? Like, what are they really asking for? Because I don't think they want to do these dumb, impossible things. I think they want to keep playing the game more. I think that's what they're really saying. They want to but they want to play the game more, they want more game. Um, and give me give me a reason to play the game. And then what they're also saying is at this point in the game, all my cats are completely mutated to the point of breaking, like that they're all freaks. The house is completely flooded with cats to the point where every time I pass the day, there's like I've got to click it like a hundred times to watch the skip the breeding animations. And it's basically like when you're at that point of the game, they're kind of like, we don't want this roguelite home hub barrier. We don't want to sift through items and you know, and hoard the mythic rare items for whatever run that we're doing, like, and we don't want to go through all this breeding stuff, we just want to play. So we're working on a DLC that kind of adds a new um a new way to play. And it's really kind of like stripping the game back, but in testing, it's really fun and it works really well, and it's definitely there for people who want to come play the game forever. Um, kind of makes the game infinite, and uh, we're hoping to have that out by the end of the year, but uh we'll see.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Is is is that as much as you can say about that?

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Yeah, it's a small it's a small little thing that I think will do wonders. I think uh I think it'll really I think it'll really scratch the itch for those type of people who've who've beaten the game and really want to keep playing the game. I think it'll add a lot a lot to the experience. Um it has for me. I mean I've been playing a lot lately with this new um, you know, design, and uh it works really well and it's fun and uh simple enough that we can just I think we can get it out there fast and just put it up for free as a little DLC.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

I'd I really love hearing that actually, just that again, that that people literally pushing up against breaking the game with maxing and then asking that question, like, well what do they yeah, what do they really want? And then being able to take that and then provide something that really is like you know, a lovely building on and iterating on what what what you created.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

Yeah, you gotta meet you gotta meet them in the middle. I remember for for a long time I wanted to do this experimental Kickstarter project where people would pay money to have a say in a video game that was built from nothing. And they basically built just just to prove a point, you pay me, and I make this I make this abomination of garbage. And I will prove to you that if you just go by what everybody wants, you get crap. Um you know, and that isn't to say that these people don't have good ideas, but they're they're so specific in in what they want. Like one of the most common things that people request requested early for these this type, um, they want a spreadsheet, fucking full spreadsheet of all of the cats in the house with all the stats, and they want to be able to like select, select, select, and like mass delete and whatever else. And it's like I get it, like I get it that that I understand those type of players. I I totally get it. Um, but then it kind of like you lose the whole house simulation, like you lose the whole hoarder theme simulation, and that's also a lot of work for something that not many people are gonna use. Um, like a tremendous reworking of everything, like borderline impossible. But um, yeah, it's it's it's uh you can't just go by what people suggest and and works, uh, and you know, with time we'll just allow people to do mod stuff and then they can do whatever they want, and they can they can prove us wrong. I've been proved wrong. I've been proved wrong before. Like I remember back in the day when doing um co-op stuff for Isaac, I I I did these little babies that you could just like drop in and you'd be this little baby with Isaac, and you could play two-player co-op. And that was in from the beginning. And the Nicholas team was like, why don't we just have two Isaacs? And I was like, Well, that doesn't make any sense. Like, it doesn't make any sense thematically. Why would there be two Isaacs? That's stupid. No, I'm not you know, no, and I was resistant. And then uh uh Vin, um who eventually did repentance with me, uh, made a mod, and in the mod he did true co-op with all the all of the Isaacs, and I played it. I'm like, well, I was wrong. I was wrong there. So they can always you know build it themselves and prove us wrong and and uh show us what what the game really needed, but for the most part, it's my job to get a general idea of what people are saying and and and make it work uh with you know our vision, basically.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

I love hearing that. Just feels like a really nice, healthy respect for the player. Um whilst knowing that one will never well there's there's some players that will just never be satisfied. I would love to see that Kickstarter exist. I would I would invest in that in my yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:38

Yeah, my relationship with fans is is I'm especially like, man, lately, fuck. I try I try, I try. Um, like the localization stuff has been a nightmare. Uh and I know I'm not gonna argue with bots on Twitter for days about dumb shit that I know doesn't actually matter. But yeah, um I don't know if you know, but in I think in China they they're not allowed to use forums. Um like Steam Steam forums, yeah. So they express themselves via reviews. Um, and it's if they don't like something, they can't really comment usually, I think. And they will review bomb, and it's a very common thing.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

That I've I read about, I just didn't realize the the I think that's where I think that's where it comes from.

SPEAKER_01 57:30

Uh that's what I've been told anyway. I could I could be wrong. I've just been told that. But um, and I get it, they are very passionate. I I understand the passion, and you know, when you when you see that kind of emotion, it's usually because they are very invested in the project and they feel like they're a part of it, so they want the but they want what they want. But man, we're just trying to get shit done. It's like there's a team of people that are working their asses off to try to get translations done for for uh simplified Chinese, and they made the mistake of in a blog post saying that they hoped to have it done by the end of the month, and then literally on the hour in China that that ended and it wasn't updated, we started to get review bombed. And it was uh we were liars, we how dare we promise these things and not follow through. It's just like there's no margin of error for just human error. But the thing is, is they also don't understand. I mean, maybe it's you know it's our fault too to not explain that like once the localizers are done localizing, then we have to implement the implement everything and test it and make sure it works, which takes weeks. Um but yeah, there's a bunch of very angry people in China that are upset, but uh don't worry. It will it will happen. But we also we also upset Ukraine, all of Ukraine came crashing down on us because we localized Russia before Ukraine.

SPEAKER_00 59:01

Ah, uh, yes.

SPEAKER_01 59:02

I'm just going by stats. I'm just going by the stats.

SPEAKER_00 59:07

Um, yeah, the the it and and it it it going way back to what we start at the beginning, you talk about obviously my my assumption is if if your um if one's sense of self in terms of why you're doing something is too squarely based on the player, as opposed to like what you were saying, wanting to create something for yourself. My assumption is you would lose your mind pretty damn quickly, right?

SPEAKER_01 59:33

Oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, I mean like I I think that's what happens a lot with it makes sense with mainstream triple A games, they really are making games for the players, and they're really trying to like listen and do what is needed, but also make something good, and you'll find that the reason why a lot of triple A games just suck is because they are just just playing it safe as safe as fucking possible, because that's usually what people are requesting. It's like, can I can you please boil this down for me? I want this to I want to be able to beat everything in it, and I don't want to ever get frustrated, and I want this and I want that, and I think I don't know. After having kids, uh I understand this a lot more because I think most designers have to design from a perspective of father or mother, where you don't want to give your kids candy all day because they all they want is candy, that's all they beg for, and and they they really want it, and sometimes they're so sincere about it, but you know they're gonna go crazy, you know it's bad for them. You don't want to you want to choose when you give it to them, so they have that like memory of, oh, remember that that time, the end of the day after the boardwalk. I got an ice cream cone and it was so delicious, and it's like having to like explain like you have to be withholding it to some degree in order for stuff to like matter, um, and you have to force people to do hard stuff for stuff to matter. It's like you won't have an experience that you will carry with you for the rest of your life unless there is some amount of like turmoil or strife or excitement or frustration. It's it's it's uh emotions are important in art. You need to be able to pull them out of people, and business goes very much against that. But what are you gonna do? It's a great amount.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:38

You painted a picture of of of me, you your your daughter trying to unlock candy. She just uh you have it, but you've got to unlock it first. You've got to have it.