Who's Going To Save The Games Industry? | Sara Hebert Marketing Expert (Ballgame, Oxenfree II)

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I've heard this sort of sentiment for a while. Like indie games are gonna save us, and I don't know if they actually will. I'm not saying that to sort of like be contrarian. There have never been more games published every single day. I think the last number I saw on Steam was like 120,000 games are on Steam. I'm sure that number is now probably closer to 200,000. I think the thing that is missing right now in the industry that could make a difference both for AAA and for indie games is like having better curation.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Hi there, my name is Stephen Lake, and welcome to the Examine Game. Today I am talking with the marketing and community managing expert Sarah Herbert. She currently works at Human Computer as the marketing lead for the upcoming game Ball Game. Previously, she was the studio manager for Night School Studios and got to see Oxen Free 2 and the likes of Unhinged go out there into the world. We got to talk a lot about Oxen Free, her love of that original game and Oxen Free 2. I wanted to speak with Sarah to get an insight into just what it takes to get a game off the ground and noticed and seen in the world. And they're coming from it from a slightly different position for most of the people I speak to, whether they're not the ones making the games, it's their job to get these games out there, seen, noticed, and appreciated in the world. And with that comes a really special skill set that Sarah clearly has. And the beginning foundation you need for that is to have this like absolute love for video games, which she has in spade. So I really hope you enjoy this conversation. Please support me on my Patreon. The link is down in the description. It makes a big difference every time I see someone ping up on there, be it for the free membership or the paid one. Enjoy this interview. Thank you very much. We had a little catch up before this. Obviously, you're doing something, you're a slightly different guest in the sense that you're most of the time you're trying to make sure you're not in front of the camera and you're putting uh like other people and games like uh ahead of it. And you had some questions about what we would talk about. But you know, for me, it's so important to like try and cover a full spectrum of what is going on in the industry and how these games get out there, and that's sort of what I wanted to talk with you about today.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Um Yeah, thank you for being really interested in that, by the way. I feel like there's a lot of crafts around games that aren't often looked at as game development crafts like community and social and marketing and product. And sometimes those roles are all rolled into one person, which has been my experience in my career. But like it's a whole part of game development that I think doesn't get like a light shown on it often enough. Like we're often talking to, you know, directors or designers, and like I those conversations are amazing. I on my walk this morning, I was listening to your conversation with Bennett Foddy, and I was just like, oh, it's like a masterclass and making hard games and like what motivates someone to do that. But the business side of games is something that I feel like people don't crack open very often. So I really appreciate you being interested in that side of the business.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Aaron Ross Powell Well, and I think what I got from our like the conversation we had previously was it's like so much, it's so funny. I mentioned about barking dogs and now I can't.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

I know, there's a barking dog like across from me. I'm so sorry. No, no, no. She'll stop.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

No, no, it's it's it's it's all part of the we can't pretend that we live in like a vacuum of no sound.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

I'm just grateful it's not my dog who's in the other room and really likes to be on camera and part of conversation. So it's just like, buddy, go go hang out in the bedroom and buddy wants to chip in in a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

But but but you you know, we talked about um yeah, like say with the example of something that is perceived or seen as an overnight success, it's it's it it it really is that because there's so much work going into sort of positioning over the years before something kicks off. And I guess well, firstly, I'm curious, I would love to hear about your just history with video games. Like, where did you um it seems like from what I picked up on your LinkedIn, you've got a semi-interesting sort of uh story around like you know how you were like seeking out video games growing up in a you know middle of a rice field and this stuff. So I just I'm just curious about where did you find games? What was your first experience, and what was the first moment you're like, ah, this is special?

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Yeah, that's a really great question. Um when I was growing up, I grew up in rural South Louisiana, and for folks who have not been there, it is just literally, you said this, it's endless rice fields. And so the house I grew up in uh was surrounded by like, you know, just this endless farmland. And it was, you know, at the time, it's kind of a boring place to live. Now I l I love going back to um rural South Louisiana. I feel like um the culture I grew up in and being uh Cajun is like such a big part of my identity. At the time I was like, oh my God, this is like southern backward redneck land. I just want to do anything to escape it. And video games became a big part of my life. And I I just had this memory recollection the other day that um, you know, I grew up really poor and my parents kind of like scrapped together enough money to buy me and my older sister uh an NES one year for Christmas, and like it was just like the most amazing thing. Like we just played it nonstop. And like on Christmas night, my parents made us go to bed, and my dad literally stayed up all night long playing Super Mario Bros. Um and so games for me, like all throughout my childhood and into my teens, just became a way to sort of escape like the weird reality that I was in living in like nowhere, Louisiana. Um, and I think one of the first games that really like put me on the course for what I do, which is like really helping game devs connect with people through their games. That game for me was really earthbound. And um, I I bought it with all my babysitting money from one summer because it had an interesting box on the shelf. And boy, isn't this marketing? The box was extra, extra large. And the artwork was um made in clay. And so instantly it just stood out on the shelf as something that was like very different. And like anyone who knows me well will tell you like Sarah's just always attracted to like things that are aesthetically weird. And so I was just like, what is this thing? Um and it was kind of pricey. It came with a player's guide, which I still have somewhere on one of these shelves. Um, and it had scratches and stickers, uh, scratches of like cards in it, so you could like smell stuff from the game. Um and Earthbound to me was one of the first games that like recognized me as a player for the way I was gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

So just to be clear, you didn't know anything. Did you know anything about the game? You were just going through Yeah, great.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Yeah. I you know Yeah. Growing up in rural South Louisiana, being a girl, there I like there just wasn't a lot of people to talk to about games. And my taste in games has always been sort of like a little weird. I like short, weird, bizarre games that have like interesting narratives. And so like I think what stands out to me is like cool art, interesting characters, and it's it's still that way in the way I choose games. So like I bought Earthbound, and I don't know, can I spoil Earthbound on your on your pocket games too much?

SPEAKER_02 6:47

And we can say now just skip forward like three minutes.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Yeah. Well, much like most RPGs, what Earthbound does early on is it like asks you for your character's name and like your favorite food that your parents cook for you. And I I found those questions very charming and still do now as like a 40-year-old adult. But at one point, the game sort of breaks the fourth roll wall and it asks you again what your name is, and it specifies no your name, like the person holding the controller. And so at the time I was like, oh, it wants to know my actual name. I'll put it in. It's Sarah, right? And then fast forward, like, you know, dozens of hours later, like grinding through this like RPG, which was like hard for me, I think, at the time I may have been in like in early high school or middle school. And then the final boss battle, this is the real spoiler. You are destined to lose that battle no matter what you do, like no matter how much you grind, what your level is. And so you lose. And the game once again breaks the fourth wall and starts talking about you, the player Sarah, and your relationship to these characters and what you are doing to try to help them succeed. And it is your power of prayer, is what I think the translation actually is in in Earthbound. Your power of prayer actually gives the characters a second win so that they can beat the final boss. And I just had this moment where like it was like a lightning rod that just shot through me, where like a game recognized me as a player. Um, and I think in some ways that experience with Earthbound really shaped my excitement about games as a medium. I've always loved movies and I like I'm a big music head. I listen to a lot of music. But games to me have this like singular emotional connection deep inside me that I was just like, how can I be part of that and do that? And um, I was never a great artist. I'm a extremely mediocre programmer, um, I'm somewhat organized. But one of the things I I have built a soft skill around that I think I'm pretty good at is like relating to people and helping them communicate. And so through a bunch of weird ways, I found my my way into games, like working on this side of the business where it was sort of like, oh, you're making something really cool. You want to get into the hands of people. Let's figure out who those people are and how do we actually get them to like give you money for the thing that you are making. Um, but it all I think it really started with that like emotional moment with Earthbound, which like is still probably like my number one favorite game of all time. I replay it every couple years.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

I love hearing that story. Earthbound, you know, and this is like that that the the the you know, I'm trying to think about a game like that. I was introduced to, you know, the point and click uh games by my by neighbor, so that was always gonna come my way. But those absolute random games that you just pick up for whatever reason and then they kind of change your life. And that we don't you don't get to really experience that anymore because unless you overtly, you know, keep something out of your line of sight that you're just gonna like, I'm gonna pay however many dollars for this, and I've got no idea what it's like. And I games like Earthbound, I missed I missed that one. It didn't like just randomly fall into my lap, so then you know it's only a couple of decades later that I get to find out about it.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

And um yeah, I still like to go to GameStop or a game store and just sort of walk through the shelves, but like so few games uh that are small, independent get physical releases anymore that like going there is sort of just like, all right, here's all the triple A games that I'm probably not interested in playing that I get to see their pretty box art on. Um it's one of the reasons like anytime I am 8 bit has like a physical store at like a conference or anything, I probably already know what they're gonna be selling there, but I like to walk through what they're doing just to be like, ooh, like let me look at this game through a different lens, which is like an interesting physical product or uh a special edition of a game. Like um, I was just at Gamescom in August, and they had a bunch of stuff from control there. And I own one of the um one of the cups that they the coffee mugs that they have from that game. But then they had a bunch of like other stuff that I was just like, ha, like, and I'm not a big control head, unfortunately. I have a dog who's very sensitive to uh sounds and like scary things. So anything that's remotely like horror adjacent, he runs out of the room and like cries. So like it's been a long time since I've been able to play a horror game, which is crazy because one of the last games I worked on at night school was a horror game that like I was just like, maybe if I wear headphones, like he'll be okay. Um but like, you know, I just kind of want all of those cool objects, but like getting to walk around in a physical space and seeing like the diversity of games, the way that they position themselves in their art and like especially conferences like meeting other game developers. That is actually my personal favorite way to discover new games. But I think it's because my personal preference for playing games is very like quirky and weird. Like I want a game that has like a story that's gonna teach me something about myself, or I want a game that like just looks insanely beautiful. Um, and it's a bonus when it's both, right? Um I feel like uh it's interesting. I I so enjoyed our previous conversation, Steven, that like I feel bad doing this, but like I also want to know like how do you discover games that you're playing now? And part of this is like self-serving because I spend a lot of time I spend a lot of time talking to people with like tastes that I respect about their consumer behaviors because as a marketer, it starts to inform where I think I should put the games that I'm I'm working on, or like how do we break into that wall? And like everyone always says like word of mouth or like I'm browsing Steam, but like where when when when do you have those moments where you're just like, oh yeah, I gotta play that game and like you instantly wanna buy something?

SPEAKER_02 12:26

That's an interesting question. It's one of those things like I'm I'm daily I'm spending time on Steam, and you know, I I've I've for the like the last 10 years I've never missed a single article on Eurogamer or Rock Paper Shotgun. Like I I I wanna be up to speed on and everything that's going on just to in case I miss something. But I suppose if I just think about what are the last two games I I bought, the Star Wars Galactic Racer, like that one was extraordinarily low heavy lift, because I'm just basing it off of some impression of an arcade game. I didn't even watch a video for it, I didn't even read a review. I saw the the headline, it was like, oh, you know, like certain reviewers that I like responded positively towards it, and I was like, that's enough for me, you know, and that's like a $60 game, right? Um, so that's one example where and actually, weirdly enough, the other one that I was like that with was the XCOM style Star Wars game that just came out as well.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Um are you like super into Star Wars? I am.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

So like I sort of am, but not that much, not so much. The the weird thing is these the actually just to be clear, like so these are the last two games I bought. I haven't bought a Star Wars game since I I don't over a decade. I never played any of the um the I can't even remember the names of them, the the Jedi ones, those sort of Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

I I am not a Star Wars video game person, but I am like a Star Wars series and film person.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

Yeah, exact same, yeah. But they just happen to make two types of games that I was like, well, I love turn-based tactical games, and this one sounded brilliant, and it is, it's great. But then on the other side of it, if I think of an example of um indie games, that's almost always going to be coming from like first, there'd be something in the imagery. Like, I played this great game called Big Hops um by Chris Wade, who was actually one of the first interviews I did, and it kind of just you know what why that one stood out to me was I think I I found some news article about it, and I looked on Steam, and it was just the cover art. Like, if you look at the cover art for Big Hops on Steam, it's this kind of goofy little frog with a little backpack, and he's sort of trunneling along, and it just it it tapped into something from my childhood, I think, about games like Spyro. Um was that at the same time it wasn't a pastiche of that because he actually does something really interesting with that that platform genre. Um so I guess what I think I'm getting at is it's like I probably I might not be as smart as I think I am when it comes to the thing that gets me to like hit the the buy button, you know. I'm sort of just going off of some sort of visceral response that I get from and then and then the final thing I'll say is there are those games that are expensive that like I did a video recently like cool titled I Can't Stop Buying Assassin's Creed games because and I think I finally stopped doing this now, but I can't stop buying them. Like, and I never finish them and I barely get through the tutorial because I'm so trying to capture something from the past. So I don't know if that answers your question, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

No, it's interesting because like there's some themes in there that I think about a lot whenever, especially the game that I'm working on right now with the team I'm a part of now, Human Computer. We're making a precision platformer called Ball Game that's like a smash up of like golf and pinball. But also, like one of the things I like about it is that it gives you the that like Saturday morning feeling when you were a kid. Like you would wake up on Saturday and just be, it's Saturday. Like I can watch cartoons, I can play all the video games, mom's not on my back. Like, let's go, right? Um, there is something about that game that like is is infused with that. And I think that was very intentional by Elliot and Alex, who uh founded our studio. But like I think a lot of people talk about franchises and video game IP as like, well, everyone wants this. It's something that um just like dominates cultural conversation. And obviously, like, you know, I guess like I'm thinking right now about GTA 6. But I think for a lot of folks who are in their like 30s and 40s and beyond, who play video games and buy video games, a lot of it is about chasing that feeling that video games gave them when they were a kid. 100%. Um I know it's for me, like I personally really I you know, I was talking about like sort of some of the things I look for in games whenever I'm buying things personally, but also like um I've always been a person that has a hard time with leisure time. So it's actually really hard for me to like kick back and just chill out and play a video game. So like I'm always like, give me like a tough thingy game. Like I'm a little behind on the boat on this, but um I had played the blueprints demo like a really long time ago and kind of bounced off of it, but everybody was like, I know you like love Oberden and like the exact same experience, yeah. Oh wow, okay. Uh I I like I love dense thinky games. Like is that the case for you too?

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Beautiful, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, phenomenal game, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Yeah, anything that like makes me feel like I gotta keep a notebook next to me while I'm playing a game really like lights me up. Um and so like it's weird to me that like I bounced off of the demo for Blueprints and then never came back because like it's taken a couple years for of people saying, Sarah, this is really your game. Like you need to play it. So like I just bought it and um I have a trip that I'm taking later this week. It's gonna be my airplane game because then I will be forced and locked in to play Blueprints. Um and I'm excited about that. But I think it is also part of what I like about those Thinky games is that they challenge my brain in the same way that my brain was challenged when I was a kid, whenever I had like a really tough level to beat in Super Mario Bros. Or um I keep trying to remember the name of this game that had like for the NES that had like a power pad. Um, because my sister and I I can't believe we had a power pad now that I'm thinking about it, which is like the like the big pad that you put on the floor that has like the dots on it. And like you like there was like a dancing game, but there was like a running, like track and field game. Maybe it was literally called track and field. But like we would put like like hand towels down on the power pad and just like beat the pad to death. And like that that's supposed to be a game that challenges your physical and technical skill. I I I just listened to like your your episode Benifati and it like resonated me with me so much because it was like like having a really hard game is really great. Yeah. But to me, it was interesting that my sister and I played the game in I think a little bit more thinky way, which was like, okay, our legs can't move fast enough on the power pad. What if we use our hands? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. So like I kind of oftentimes when I'm working with teams, especially on independent games that are original IP, and that is the thing that gets me up in the morning because I just think like, boy, humans are so creative. Like, there's so many original ideas out there. Why are we still playing like the same franchise over and over and over? Is trying to think about ways that like you can position the game in a way that is familiar just enough so people can kind of squit and go, oh, I'm kind of interested in that because it reminds me of something maybe I played as a kid or something that I love. But also is enough of a new thing that they feel incentivized to spend, you know, 15, 20, all the way up to 60 dollars on something, especially in these weird economic times. And I think nostalgia is a really powerful tool for marketing. Um, and I think a lot of times games dev game devs look at it as sort of like, oh, we have to like pull genres together that players are familiar with. But for me as a marketer, it's like, how can we pull those genres together in a way that activates an emotional response that makes your game irresistible? It makes it be a thing that people take action and they're looking forward to and they want to immediately immediately play. Um, that's the kind of stuff that I get really excited about.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

It's funny, and then this this this I'm not saying this as a segue, but it actually does work as a segue. Which is, you know, I was talking about like point and click adventures, and that's that's the one where I'm I'm constantly scouring, and I feel like I've I've got I mean I could just buy a game, refund it, but it doesn't feel right. There's something that I'm I'm always scouring for the evidence that's gonna tell me this is the closest you're gonna get to experiencing like playing Monkey Island in 2026 is the first time, and obviously, you know, or playing Gabriel Knight for the first time, like games like Caffe Rain is like absolutely brilliant, or um uh what the you know Wadget Eye is doing, but then Oxen Free, I think is a perfect example of um a game that I'm looking at it and it's like oh this is definitely gonna scratch that point and click itch, except it actually sort of doesn't, because it's it's it's it's not the same kind of interface, but then it is also doing this beautiful thing, um which is now perhaps a little bit more common, but it's that kind of angsty young person, edgy, teeny, you know, early twenties characters, um, which was like such a I don't know, it felt like a sort of a great blending, mashing of of genres, and that I know that and obviously we talk about oxen free too, but you we spoke before you spoke about what a huge fan you are of that that particular game and what it was doing, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yeah, and I think it's it's super weird. Like um, I have really cherished my time working at night school and like working on the Oxen Free series is like just a huge career highlight for me, but like not a thing I ever set out being like it'd be cool if this happened. Um but occasionally you have games that sort of come into your life, and I think they touch you in ways that make them so memorable to kind of bring back this like nostalgia point. Um, Oxenfree came into my life at the same time that a close colleague of mine, who's just like a really amazing mentor who changed my life, he was diagnosed with ailments. And then passed away a couple years after. And um he worked with me as a documentarian at a studio I was working at at the time, Moonbot Studios, which is now closed, but it was an animation games, uh, interactive book studio. I mean, this kind of thing, like I can't, I can't believe it ever existed. Um, and like we did stuff like won Academy Awards and like had New York Times bestsellers. Like the studio was actually like pretty successful. Um and Patrick was like my right hand person in like doing behind the scenes work. He would come in and like edit with me and my colleague Calvin O'Neill Jr. Um and so when Patrick was diagnosed with ALS, it was interesting because he was like, Hey, I don't want to lose my sense of my ability to continue doing work. So literally we worked with Patrick all the way through, losing his voice and his physical capabilities, but like his mind was still so sharp and he would make these insanely like creative videos that were like behind the scenes and trailers and that sort of thing for Moonbot. Um and when he passed away, I just felt like I wished I could loop back and do so much of our relationship differently. Um, and this, you know, this feeling that I had that I couldn't get rid of, I was living with at the same time that Oxhumfree came out. And um at the time, Moonbot was sort of looking at like how do we do more narrative-driven games, like who's doing cool stuff. Um, and Night School released Oxempfree, and I was just like, this is what we should be making. Why didn't we make this game? You know, I was a little like angry about it. I was like, this is the kind of stuff that we do. Because like both, both of those studios were doing interesting things where like they were making games that spoke to like an inner child, or like that like were really interesting um mechanics around characters and like how we relate to people. Um, and so I played Oxen Free 1 in just like a big gulp through one night. And um, you know, there's uh there's a storyline where the main character, Alex, um, has lost her brother. And there's an interesting metaphor about grief in the way that the story loops through time. Um, you change your relationships with other people based around what you say to them. And all of this stuff like made me really reflect on my relationship with Patrick. And so, like, it was just like a punch in the gut, and I was just sort of like, it would be a game that I would come back to over and over because like the older you get, the more you lose people in your life who you're close with. And it was sort of like my like familiar record that I'd go to whenever I felt the pain of grief in my life. And literally professionally, it kind of like was like freelancing and going about my my life and like the opportunity to work on Oxen Free 2 came into my lap just randomly through a few colleagues and I met Sean Crankel, who was the studio director of night school at the time, and we really hit it off. And I don't think I've ever actually told anyone in the team that story about Oxen Free One. Um, but what I really was so excited about meeting Sean and the team, I was just sort of like, I want to better understand how the heck you guys marketed Oxenfree One and got it to do so well. Because at the time in the marketplace, there there wasn't a lot to reference in terms of like the feeling and the vibes for Oxen Free. And like you hit on this earlier when we're talking about Monkey Island, it's a point and click adventure, but it's not really a point and click adventure, right? So like it's this mechanically sort of weird thing that came out in 2016. Now I think we have like a whole genre of like choices matter games that are easy to refer to, but it really pioneered that genre, I think, at least the slightest iteration of it. Um and so talking to that team, like they were sort of like positioning it as like freaks and geeks, the video game uh whenever it came out, which like speaks to a very particular like genre of person, right? And then Stranger Things like came out not long after Ox and Freak came out, and pressing media and people talking about the game sort of naturally made the connection between the two, and it became like this really great shorthand for like a coming-of-age story in games. Um and so like I think it's interesting. Like, I wanted to work with the team mostly because like one, obviously huge fan of the game that like helped me get through like grieving a personal friend, but also there's there was just an interesting continual iteration of the positioning of Oxenfree after it came out that like I dug into pretty heavily whenever we started talking about the positioning for Oxenfree too. Um, and it was just really cool to kind of see that um you can release a game, and most of the time that game gets like its highest spike in sales whenever it comes out at first, right? Like that first month is so critical for a game. Oxenfree is a game that like continued to like push spikes over time, I think because the team was willing to sort of experiment with different ways of positioning that game for a very, a very long period of time. I mean, Oxenfree one is over 10 years old at this point, which is insane to think about. It makes me feel very old. Yeah, yeah. And I think like there's a lot of sensibility, I think, in the past couple years that like whenever you release a game, if it doesn't do well in the first like month or two, wow, you really failed. But I think it takes time sometime for a game to find its audience, and that means supporting it in post-release in some way. Um, and I think the last couple games I've worked on have just been like one and done, sort of like pop into the ether experiences. And one thing I'm really excited about, what we're doing at uh Human Computer is like making interesting, mechanically rich short games that give us like a lot of iteration time to put something out, get feedback, focus on like what matters to people, and if it's exciting that we continue to support it, like if it finds an audience afterward. I think that's a hard decision for a lot of teams to make, especially whenever like you're a solo dev or you're just two people and like you're trying to make ends meet. I mean, the economic realities of purchasing and buying video games, I think, are very different now than they were like in like 10 years ago, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

And then so when you joined um Night School, what was what was on the cusp of what that company was about to do at that point, and and where was was Oxen Free 2 on the timeline? And and obviously it's just in like it's interesting you said about their post-release willingness to iterate, and I wonder if that bleeds into you know what is quite interesting about Oxen Free 2 with it being published by Netflix and all this stuff, you know, that it because it because the thing that's always interested me is like it's it's a little bit like well, this is my literal dream come true, that this is the kind of game that's being released in this sort of way. But I never would have pictured that it would be ox auxinfree, you know. Not for yeah. I love it, but do you do you know what I mean by that?

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh yeah, it's sort of interesting. Like when I came on board to the team, the intent was to build the go-to-market plan for oxen free too. Um and I came on board at night school. I think I started in 2021. It's really hard for me to remember. Um but the intent was for me to come in and sort of plan like how will we announce this game? What are the opportunities on the table? Uh if we're partnering with first parties, let's maximize our relationship with them and figure out like what can we do to like bring great success for the platform, but also for the game. Um but also like it was so interesting because like the team is still supporting this game that I think I guess at that point was like five years old, um, which I think is is unheard of for a a lot of games. But Ox and Free continued to build an audience for a long time, and that's what made it viable for a sequel. And so after the game came out initially, like um, I think this credit may go to like a couple of technical folks in the team, like Brian Cannon. Like the team ported it to a bunch of different platforms and iteratively released that game across other platforms like Xbox and Nintendo Switch, and you know, going to like uh secondary platforms like itch.io and that sort of thing. Um, and so that work was being done internally. I think it would support some support from porting studios and like external QA teams. So um the team kind of had an opportunity to sort of like see what resonated with audiences over and over the years by doing that sort of staggered um release strategy. For Oxenfree Two, um we really wanted to look at like how do we like capture that existing audience for Oxenfree one, bring them along for Oxenfree Two, but also sort of like ratchet up the how how big of an audience could we get for an IP like this? And so um, you know, we spent a lot of time thinking about how we would announce the game. We found some partners uh with first parties that made a lot of sense. But then also, you know, Oxenfree is such an interesting example of how marketing can expand the story outside of the game into the way that you interact with um the game on social media or other platforms. Um the team had done this really cool alternate reality game for Oxenfree One, which I wasn't part of, but like admired from afar as a marketer because it like really activated the community to like actually go out to physical locations and like dig up like a music box that had been um buried in the Pacific Northwest. Um and like seeing that in person for me as a fan was just sort of like it was like seeing like uh like the idol from Indiana Jones, right? Like it was just like, ah, like I finally get to hold this. Like, is there a boulder coming behind me to roll over me? Um but at the time, like I think the thing that like people forget, like uh we also were announcing and working on this game in the pandemic. So like it's hard to one, just collaborate with everyone from all over the place. I was living in Louisiana at the time. Some of the team was uh here in California, we had some international folks too. So like the logistics of just like coordinating time zones and like how do we collaborate was really hard. Um, but also that meant like we needed to build if we wanted to continue that alternate reality game, which the community really wanted, we'd have to do it in a way that was mostly online. Um, and so it was really nice to collaborate with Scientific, who uh is the composer and I sort of think of him as like the vibes captain of night school, or or was the vibes captain of night school, on like how do we translate that same sort of sleuthing experience and keep that community interested in talking about the game as loudly as possible outside of the game? Um there's a cult that gets introduced in in uh Oxen Free 2 called Parentage, and so we really kind of latched on that as like a thing that we could build lore around. And so the writers for the game, um, Adam Hines and Adam Douglas, like just were like this great repository of knowledge of how they were thinking about the cult. And that sort of drove an interesting narrative outside of the game that became a flywheel for marketing, um, Oxen Free 2. So, like if you go back and look at a lot of Oxen Free 2 stuff, you'll find little Easter eggs that like we were planning sort of like Morse code with interesting signals on like where to look next or information about the cult. Um, and so it really satisfied this player experience need that people get from the game, which is like doing the detective work of figuring out like what the heck is happening in this one weird night in the Pacific Northwest and taking that outside of the game in a way that could become like a marketing engine for the game. Um, I'm really proud of that work and it was really fun to do. I don't want to spoil it because like you can still go out and sort of like find like the videos and the media that we dropped and like put together the puzzle. Um and I don't think there's been enough time for it to like it's not like earthbound, it hasn't been out for like over 20 years.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

It needs a little bit more time, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Yeah, I also feel like I just rambled there, Steven, so like I don't even know. That's fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

I love I love exactly what I wanted to hear, honestly. And I'm sort of curious again, be it that or the you know, the other projects say that you've worked on or were working on, say, with night school, like what your experience has been of pulling in new audiences to playing video games. Because again, like I feel like Oxen Free is one of those great um examples of a game that you can it's a pretty low barrier to entry, right? To before you know how to navigate it, you know how to get into the story, you know how to we've weave your way through the story.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Absolutely, yeah. And I feel like um whenever we talk about night school, obviously, like uh at the time that I I worked with night school, I I came on board, we were an independent studio, we were acquired by Netflix. Um, and so like we became part of Netflix for a number of years until the studio closed um not long after my departure from the studio. Um to me, like the most exciting thing about that was having access to people who literally sit in front of a screen looking to be entertained every day. Um, and like from around the globe. And Oxenfree always had like a very global audience, even though I feel like I don't know, I think our localization team must have like done a bang up job. I wish I spoke more languages, but like the storyline resonates with people from all sorts of cultures, different countries in different languages. It's pretty shocking to sort of see. Um, and so thinking about unlocking that global stage as being part of Netflix was really exciting. Um and so it made me think a little bit differently about how we would approach audiences. We tried a different localization strategy, both for bringing Oxen Free 1 and Oxen Free Two to Netflix. But I think also like, you know, we were talking sort of about earlier, just like personal, like how do you discover games and like versus like trends and marketing? I think it's really important for marketers and developers who are doing the marketing for their games to like both look at the macro, which is sort of like, hey, what's happening in the economy, the socioeconomic landscape where people choose to play games, but also to pay attention to individual conversations and see if there's signal there as well. And so um, Sarah was saying, my parents have always known and been really obsessed with video games. I don't think they've ever played a game I've worked on. And I've shipped ball game will be my 14th game. Um and I'm just like, one day, maybe they'll play one of my games. Mind you, this is my dad who stayed up all night playing Super Mario Bros., right?

SPEAKER_03 35:37

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

And my dad called me one day. This is after we had shipped Oxen Free 1 for uh for TV. Um so Netflix has like a TV service where you play games using your phone as a controller, which like I I I think is just like the coolest thing. You know, Amazon Luna does this too, where it's just like you can literally be sitting down and playing a game within five minutes. You know, we Oxen Free was one of the first games to come to Netflix's um games on TV service. And I think it's pretty cool because like at any point you can just be starting to play a game with just like the things that you have in your living room. You don't have to buy any additional equipment. I think in today's economic times, it's really exciting that like there's a really inexpensive way to play very high quality games. Um but like I think I was mentioning, you know, I I it's important to pay attention to like macro marketing signals, like what's happening in the industry, what genres are performing well, like what gets games in front of players. But I also like to pay attention to some of the smaller signals as well. Like um, like what we were talking about earlier, like talking to people about like how do you discover games? What are you playing right now? How did you find it? That sort of thing. And uh my dad, who lives in rural Arkansas now, and it like, you know, he watches a lot of TV, I guess, from time to time. He called me one day and he was like, Sarah, did you know oxen freeze on Netflix? And I was like, Yes. I was like, Dad, that's what I do for a living. He was like, Oh, cool. He's like, Well, I think we might play it. And I was just like, What? Like it absolutely blew my mind that like just by being on a surface that my dad looked at every day, he finally was like, Oh, I guess I'll play one of these games that Sarah has worked on, right? It was just like so hilarious to me. And so, you know, one of the things I think about a lot is like, how do we get these smaller, more mechanically unusual or experimental games in places where just like my average dad will try them because I think they just haven't been shown a bizarre, interesting game. Like my dad has repeatedly throughout my like youth and teens, like picked up games that I have been playing. So like I mentioned uh Super Mario Bros earlier. But there's also a funny story with my dad that I just remember the other day where like I had a Game Boy Color that I also paid for with babysitting money that I got Pokemon Yellow for and like had like played like probably like a hundred plus hours on. And uh I woke up one day, my dad was playing my Game Boy Color, and that was really cool. And I was like, oh, awesome. And I think at the time I was like 14 or 15, right? So it was just like anything to like connect with my cool dad. He's he's an awesome dad. Um and then like he was done playing, and then I was like, all right, my turn. And he had deleted my entire game, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:13

Like so like you know, we're dealing with people as you're like, how old are you though?

SPEAKER_01 38:17

I th I think I was like 14 or 15. So I was emotionally uh probably internally not very well, but I also grew up sort of not being, and probably am still am. I I don't make very externally um emotional responses to things. At least I try not to. I'm very much a people pleaser, smooth things over, sort of thing. So I probably was like, oh no, and like went in my bedroom and cried, uh, which is what I mostly do about emotionally upsetting things. Sure. And I don't know Yeah. I don't think I ever picked up another. Just shove it down. Yeah. Um I don't think I ever picked up another Pokemon game after that, I will say. Like I think that sort of ruined uh my my Pokemon uh franchise run. Um but to me, like often as a marketer, I like asking people who don't identify as gamers is sort of like what's on your phone or like what are you playing? Um, because I really think that games are like music. Like whether or not you identify as a gamer is irrelevant. Everyone plays games, everyone listens to music, everyone watches movies. It's just about like sort of figuring out like what do you perceive to be a game and what is a thing that you keep around that's part of your life every day. Um and so like I think with a lot of these new platforms for playing games, there's a real opportunity to get your game into the pocket of someone who might pick it up at any point. So like I get really fascinated when I think about subscription models. I get really fascinated, particularly about mobile games. Like, I actually don't play a ton of mobile games. I'm like a daily like Puzzmo Wordle player, but beyond that, like there's not a lot on my phone that I play on a day-to-day basis. But like something that keeps me up at night as a marketer is that like at any point within five minutes, anyone in the globe can be playing a game for free that they'll probably really like. And so when I think about premium games, um, maybe that don't have a demo or don't use like the old school shareware model, which I'm also very fascinated by. Subscription models for games have existed all the way into the 80s and 90s. Um like I think I'm just like, hey, if gas is six dollars a gallon, which it is here in LA where I live, and a cool new game is also six dollars, like we've messed up. Like, of course, people will choose to play a game that has less friction, that is in their pocket, that is available for free for them at any point. Um and so I think it's just like an interesting, weird time to be in the space of like product and marketing and be thinking about like, hey, we have this great gem of a game. How do we get it on a surface or a place where people will actually see it and give it a chance? And and not just a chance, but also their money. Like that's a whole other l level of friction to games right now. Because at any point, I can just like leave this conversation and be playing a pretty good game for free.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

Um because yeah, I never never thought of it. You should uh if you're I it's actually not on YouTube, but I I interviewed Scott Miller from Apogee uh games and the you know, and it's it's kind of like it's not you know, it's it's rudimentary to say it was like the steam of the 90s, but you know, he's talking about you know, a free, you know, couple of levels and people calling up and giving their credit card information to get sent the rest of the game. It's absolutely incredible, incredible model.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

Um Yeah, that people would actually do that. It's so funny that you mentioned that because like I love that you interviewed him, by the way, because I think there's a lot to learn from the economic models of that time and the marketing approaches from that time. I am like endlessly obsessed with this independent um games and software publisher that was based in like what I consider my adopted home hometown of Shreveport, Louisiana. Um that publisher was SoftDisc, and they did something called software magazettes. Um and so basically, like you would subscribe to a magazine and it would come with a disc with like a couple games and software for like your Apple II or like your the whatever PC you might have had then. And Soft Disc is like the place where like a lot of um folks who are sort of in that like id era, Scots era of game making and game publishing, like got their start. And it's such an interesting thing because like I think about this a lot with the studio that I'm at now, Human Computer. Like, we're really like focused on making short games that don't waste your time. So like they're worth you the investment of time that you put into them and the money. And like back in the 90s, people were literally paying to subscribe to a magazine that would send them games every month. They were just taking a chance on it. And then on the flip side, there were game developers who were like, I gotta make a new game every single month. Like, what, like, I mean, that sounds like some sort of obscure like challenge for things. And like this thing made money. Like, I actually have a box that's in my bedroom that came from one of the soft disk uh uh like associated people that has a lot of like financial records and like business records uh for the company because like I've been sort of like secretly working on like a documentary about this in the background as I have time in between shipping games. Yeah. I mean I'd actually love to talk to you about this.

SPEAKER_02 43:17

As far as like people, I mean I've it's like Scott, but that I loved that interview, but people don't usually light up when you say the words like shareware, you know.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

No, I mean like for me, like I feel like a nerd in the industry because like I get really excited about alternate economic models for games.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

And I think what I love about the conversation was it is that it's off the back of none of the big studios wanting wanting him, you know, and saying, I guess I'll just do this.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Yeah. Yeah. I kind of like I love that like anarchist, like uh reject mentality. Like I was having a conversation with someone the other day who's had a very different like career direct directory than me, and he was like, Oh, you've always worked in independent stuff. And I was like, Yeah. I was like, I don't think You know, a lot of companies, like big triple A companies out there are like, let's hire this like little redneck lady from like a rice field to like work on stuff. But you know who will? Weirdos and freaks who make independent games. And that I I've built a career off of working with those weirdos and freaks. And I think Scott is like a great example of someone who like succeeded in spite of the weird economic challenges in the games industry. And I think it just came through like being willing to iterate, try wild new things and just like put in the grit, elbow grease work of like the business side of games. And I think that's the sort of thing that a lot of teams overlook or just don't have the bandwidth for. And like that's where like, you know, I freelanced for a number of years after um Moonbach Close. And that's that's sort of how I got introduced to the night school team was just like freelancing for various teams. And it's like someone on the team needs to have that sort of brain that they're sort of like, hey, what's the weird experimental stuff that we can try that might put our game in front of a different audience or that might help us reach like the freaks that that love our game in some way. And I think Scott is like the proto like person who did this in the industry, just like endlessly fla fascinated by his career.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

I mean, but what what's amazing is those, again, those types of ideas, you know, you can say the same thing about Dungeons and Dragons, you know, and it's like you can say, you know, they just it just builds and builds until it becomes one of the biggest thing that's like so niche. It's always gonna be the the the seeds of what's gonna become like you know what good one of the biggest sort of franchises around. And I think it feels to me, again, come back to the idea of trying to put g games in there. I mean, you know, with the Wii, Nintendo did it in this brilliant way where I've got my my mum playing like Wii sports, you know. Um it still feels like it hasn't been cracked. This gi gargantuan audience that that would probably love engaging with games, but for whatever reason, there's just this this this barrier to entry. Um it's great when you've got something you can play on the TV with your phone and yeah, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

Like I have a couple thoughts on that. Um one is like um as a woman in games, like um people are always like, how do you have the bandwidth to like sit down and play like a hundred plus hours of like a persona game or metaphor refantasio? Like, I I love those games so much. It's like my my secret uh you know thing that I don't tell people is that I like J E RPGs like that. Um I'm like, well, I don't have kids and I don't have a very demanding life. Like I've got a dog in my life and that's really it. Like, so like on a Saturday, if I'm like, hey, I'm not gonna talk to a human being and like crank away for eight hours, I have the luxury of doing that. Most women that I know are getting their entertainment hits in between the work that they do, both in their day job, for their family, for their communities. And so I think a lot of them don't look at some of the stuff that they do as playing games. But like I was poking um at a friend of mine who um was like, I'm not a gamer, I don't play games. And I was like, what's on your phone? And she showed me this interesting like merge game, and I don't even remember the name of it, but she was like knew all the complicated mechanics of that game so well. And I watched her play for 15 minutes, and she was like, Normally I just play for like 15 minutes. I don't really spend a ton of money in the game. She was like, occasionally I'll spend five bucks or so, but like she's part of a guild that like shows up and that they all have tasks to do in this game. And she doesn't think of herself as a gamer. Now, look at that through another lens, and it's like if you're playing Call of Duty with your boys, you know, on a Thursday night, you're probably doing something very similar, but the activity looks very different. And so I think you're right, Steven. Like it's interesting to sort of look at these new ways of playing games as ways to crack open an additional market. But I also think we have to acknowledge that those games have to fit into people's lives who are non-traditional audiences that we think of when it comes to games. And so, like, um, I've been playing Titanium Court and like really savoring it because I think it's just like a brilliant narrative game, a brilliant mechanical game. It's like one of these examples of like really weird and interesting short games that are like inexpensive and fun to play. But at the heart of it, it's a match three game. It's like a match three, like uh like almost like a real-time strategy game with a very bizarre narrative. Um and like I look at it and I go, like my friend Reese that I was describing earlier, who plays her her match three merge game, you know, in 15-minute increments every day, I think would really like this game, but it's not on mobile and it's not in a space where she would engage with it, like or or find it. And so I think that gap is pretty interesting. And that's the space that I think is most interesting in games right now, where it's like everyone plays games in the same way that everyone plays music. How do we just get these more interesting, bizarre games in front of them? And that's the kind of thing that like gets me up every day to to work is sort of like I want to convert people who are playing these like sort of like weird merge games that like don't have great art or great story into playing something like Titanium Court that has like this incredible like story about self-discovery and like capitalism. Like I think that's how we really change Golter. I would I would really like to like figure out how to convert more of those players. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:16

I love that moment when a game like I it's I obviously think this is a bit of a side tangent, but you know, when I first played Braid, um you know, with the you know, and it's just puzzle game with the the time mechanics, but the game really, really impacted me with its story and the you know what what kind of unfolds at the very ending and this this because the guy's always in pursuit, you know, it's the plan the Mario thing where you get to the end and then I think it's it's like his girlfriend's at the next cast or whatever. And it it's just that beautiful um example of of interweaving great story with with puzzle games, which is sort of um I don't know if that's hard to do or not, but but when it's done right, it can be really I don't know if it's because you have such a tactile relationship with the character or the square that you're moving around. Um that you feel the impact of the the you know, even if the story is just like a little side thing to get you between places, when it's well thought out, it can be pretty special.

SPEAKER_01 50:16

Totally. Yeah, and I think like I not to just gush about Titanium Court, which I've done for months. Like, I think one of the things that game does really well is that the narrative is really tied in mechanically to moments. So like the tone in the story continues to be driven while you're doing like sort of like twitchy, interesting mechanical things. Um, and I think it's the same thing that is interesting about Oxenfreeze that the mechanic is the way that the story gets unfolded. And like I'm not I'm not like a game design, like literate human being. So I may be losing using this term incorrectly, but like I think a lot of games have like ludonarrative dissonance. I don't know, Steven, like you you're you're super design literate, where like the thing you're doing in the game is actually totally unrelated to the story. And like I think like merge games and match three games are a great example of this, where like you do a bunch of things, you merge some items, you make some other items, you like clean up your mansion or whatever. And then like the story that you get is like just served to you as like a little like 15 to 30 second animated vignette. It would be cooler if like the story unfolded while you were doing that work, and I think it would suck you in even more. But like, what do I know? I'm not a game designer. But I do think like story, I mean, when you think about the reason why people love books, they love films, they love TV shows, they love music, is that there are stories that resonate with them that they want to return to over and over in each one of those platforms. Like, um, I love you know, one of my uh favorite books is Walden. I return to it almost every single year to read part of it at some point, but it's because that that story speaks to me about something over and over and over. And I think when games are missing a story that sticks with you for a long time, you know, not only are you missing like a big audience that's just like obviously I love stories because everyone read reads books, films, watches TV, right? Um, but also you're missing an opportunity to sort of like seed that game in someone's heart so that they they become like word-of-mouth marketers for you to be gross and like weird for a minute. Like I tell people all the time about like Claire Obscure, not because like I actually hate the gameplay of Claire Obscure. It is like not my kind of gameplay. I did.

SPEAKER_02 52:23

I did hate it. And then and then when they they updated it and let you do the auto restart of the the battles, I I I cracked it. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:33

Okay. All right. Well maybe I need I I uh we continue. Uh I I need to come back to the game because I'm like a right at the end and I need to finish it. I know I could just like drop the difficulty down, but I'm also like I gotta get getting it.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

I'm gonna be exact. I haven't finished it. I've exactly to commit to one another actually finishing it. Yeah, okay. Shall I drop the difficulty? No, no, no, no. If I can go this long without changing the difficulty and a spare at the moment hissing fit, and I've got to see us see it through. I've finally got the parry system down, my least favorite mechanic in video games. Uh yes, I agree with you.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like at this point, you know, I took a little break because I was like so I was having such a hard time like getting toward the end of the game that like if I had to recite the story back to you, I don't think I could. Like it's already like kind of an obtuse story, um, beautiful visuals. And so it's a hard game for me to to recommend to people because I think the story's a little obtuse. The game, the the game mechanic is a little obtuse. Now, on the other hand, I don't have any hesitation recommending a game like Oberden to people because it's mechanically very hard. Like that is a hard puzzle game, right? But the story, as you unlock it, because you have this like great victory moment when every time you unlock part of that puzzle and you get to piece together part of that story and tell yourself the story, I think it really is the perfect game for word-of-mouth marketing because you're like, the game made me feel smart. It has this insane story that you will not believe. And you you write the story literally, like in the game. Um so I think story is like one of those pieces that can really uh unlock a bigger audience if you can make a story that sticks with people for a long time and it becomes part of that marketing flywheel of like, let me tell you about this incredible game experience I had.

SPEAKER_02 54:12

Just to get I I feel like I keep plugging my episodes, but if you're a fan of JLPG and I I I interviewed Amandine Mores, the hair designer for Claire Obscure Expedition 33, because I was like, that would be a really good uh conversation. Because I know that film was made on a tight, tight budget, and I feel like the the the hair in that game was doing a lot of heavy lifting to like cover up whatever else might be going on, you know, going over there.

SPEAKER_01 54:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I gotta listen to that episode, and I have to say, Steven, not to just like sound like I'm sucking up to you. Like it's really rare for me to like find a game podcast that I actually really like listening to because I feel like a lot of them are like loud and brash, and they're not like real like nuanced conversations with people who make games or about games. And so like I've really enjoyed like going back into your archive and listening to episodes and like can continue to like it's gonna be something that I'm gonna listen to every episode.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

So it means a lot to me, you know. You never know what you never know how people are engaging with it, and you know, it's hearing hearing people that are actually listening for the whole thing is is is great to hear. I mean, I I love it, you know, absolutely love it. But um what was I gonna say? So I guess we're thinking, so then it's it's interesting where it's like it does feel like in some ways there's a better, you know, because the triple A games over here, I mean it feels like a lot of the time they're basically trying to keep keep onboarding the players that already exist, right? You've got to own a console or a high-powered PC, but is it that if there's hope it's in the the indies w when it comes to um onboarding new audiences? Because the games that you're describing are like I mean, there's still a huge chasm to to pass to try and get them into those games. And but I guess there's a question like, well, I feel like yes, we do want the audience because that means more affluence for the industry and more games get made and more people get to keep their jobs.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

Yeah. I mean, like, I spend a lot of my time thinking about how do we build marketing machines that create sustainable game development teams? And so, like, I think marketing is something that people think about as like a thing that happens like after you've really figured out what the game is. But I think like marketing people can really help at the very beginning, whenever you're coming up with the game idea to help you figure out is there an audience that will buy those games? Will they actually show up and give you the right kind of feedback? And is there like an economic viability for the thing that you're making? So, like, you know, if you're making a weird match three game, right? Like, what's the size of that audience and like what what kind of money do they spend? And does that match up with your actual development budget? Like those are things that like if marketers come in very early on a game, they can actually help figure that out. Um, what I think is interesting about I've heard this sort of sentiment for a while, like indie games are gonna save us, and I don't know if they actually will. And I'm not saying that to sort of like be contrarian. I think it is having a I mean, I was saying this earlier about like you can jump in and play a free game within five minutes on anything that you have around you at this point. Also, you know, there have never been more games published every single day. I think the last number I saw on Steam was like 120,000 games are on Steam. I'm sure that number is now probably closer to 200,000 because like there's just so much, so many games being published every day. Um, but I think the thing that is missing right now in the industry that could make a difference both for AAA and for indie games is like having better curation. Um, and so like I think what what some people are doing right now in terms of being like content creators, and like I I I think of you as someone like this, Stephen, is sort of like I want to find people who have similar tastes to me and understand like they've done the hard work of like looking at a bunch of games or maybe playing demos and that sort of thing. Like what things are they interested in if their taste aligns with me? And I think that cross that cuts across every sort of like part of the industry. Now, some content folks I follow, they often have a preference more for independent games because like I think I have a a weird ass like personal taste for games. Um on the other hand, like, you know, I uh like I'm a Patreon supporter of kind of funny and have been for, I don't know, a really long time because I liked I liked some of the nuanced discussions they have about triple A games and often like I'm not gonna play a triple A game. It's very rare that that actually happens. But I like being part of the dialogue and understanding what's working about that game and like bringing it into the fold for the types of independent, small, interesting, short games that I work on. Um I think, you know, to kind of like bring it back to the question, it's like I think we often set up this dichotomy that triple A games and indie games are like two different spaces in the business. But really at the end of the day, when I think about the mom who's picking up a game in the like late at night after their kids have gone to bed, or like um the squad that gets together on Thursday to play a game together, I don't think they're sitting around and saying, like, what triple A game are we going to play? I think they're sitting around and saying, what game is available for me to escape reality right now and enjoy? Right. And that could be an independent game or a triple A game. And I think um, you know, I I don't think audiences necessarily like have these brackets in mind when they make decisions. What they're thinking about is like, what's fun, what looks cool to me, can I play it right now? Right. Um and that's the spaces that I think about a lot and as a marketer, especially in post-launch, where it's like you have a game that's interesting, it's it's proven itself, it's actually shipped, which is a miracle every time that happens. You know, like how how can we get that game into spaces where people will pick it up and play it in each one of those scenarios if they're relevant to the audience for the game.

SPEAKER_02 59:50

And so then I'm just curious how then that's how you're applying that with with you know what you're working on now. And and then you know, we talked, we yeah, well, we we already took we talked about it a little bit, but I I want to hear it again and you go in a bit more detail on that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:04

Yeah, I think you know, it's funny when we talked last time, I got so excited to talk to you because I think content creation is such a fascinating industry.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:10

We've talked about everything other than the one we were supposed to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:13

I know, then yeah, then actual like marketing or like how games work. Um but I think like all of this is is relevant because like I think everyone right now is trying to figure out like it used to be we used to talk about this as like building a community. And like I have I have beef with the term community because like my neighbors and I have a community. Like whenever I need help, they come over and like help me like you know, get a ladder to like do something. I'm not sure a lot of video game communities are doing that. But like building an audience these days is like it's iterative prototyping work, which is the backbone of the game development industry. And so I got really excited about joining Human Computer earlier this year because our co-founders, Elliot and Alex, um, you know, they've really observed like what works and doesn't work in the games industry, both from like a game development perspective and a marketing perspective. Like I have so much respect for them because like they understand that marketing is part of game development. Like we have to get in early and build an audience. And so, you know, um, when we announced our game earlier this year, it's ball game, and I mentioned this earlier. It's a very interesting game that combines like this the speed of pinball with the strategy of golf. Um, I've done a ton of demos for people and talked to people about the game and like the three games that come up, most often about the game, are like it's painful, like Super Meat Boy. So like you're gonna die a lot trying to figure out like how do I get this little golf ball from the T to the flag and as few strokes as possible. Um, I also hear a lot about Celeste because it is a precision platformer, just with like less jumping and more ball flinging. So like you fling like a little golf ball from like level to level and into obstacles or away from hazards. And then also like Sonic, because like when I watch speedrunners play this game, it is so fascinating because they are just their brains operate on a level that mine definitely does not. Um, so it was fun at Gamescom in particular, a bunch of speedrunners just kept coming by trying to like say, yeah. Just juice the score. And we've been talking about this a lot because like watching those folks like taught us a lot about like how to design some mechanics a little bit differently. And then also the loop of like speed running is like I I just want to get to the core of what I'm speedrunning as fast as possible. So like trimming all of the stuff around this, some of the delicious stuff that we were just talking about, like story and that sort of thing, like does not matter to speedrunners, right? Um But like I think what's been interesting is that like we've done a lot of traditional marketing stuff and non-traditional stuff for ball game. And the market is just a hard market right now, especially for new IP, mechanically interesting games. I think platformers are very specific kind of genre that like have an audience that like will definitely play the game, but they want to like have buy-in both like during development and like to hear it from like creators and influencers that like this game is worth playing. Um, and so we've done stuff like we were we were part of showcases around Summer Game Fest. Um, we released a demo, you know, we have stuff coming up like that are very traditional marketing beats for the game. But one of the things I really have appreciated about our studio is just this like concept of like, let's just try it and see what happens. And so this fall, we're just doing a bunch of marketing experiments just to see like what is gonna work for this game, both from like everything from like creator outreach and doing that a little differently to like how do we like use some lessons from other industries for social media and what is driving engagement for their posts. And then also like um we also have like a YouTube channel where we do video essays. And so before I joined the studio, Elliot really led the effort on doing a series of videos about short games, like what was interesting them about them design-wise and what he was taking away as a game designer and applying to ball game and like that series, those videos continue to perform really well on YouTube. We're thinking about doing a second season now. On the surface, that doesn't look like marketing for ball game, but it is about audience building. And so, like, I mean, you're doing this right now, Stephen, and this is what we talked about, where it's just like building an audience on YouTube is a grind, right? It's just about like publishing a lot of content, learning from what hits, reading the comments, engaging with the community. And so, like doing that on top of actually building a game is a hard challenge. So, like, my my job is sort of 50% like thinking about like the content strategy behind that. Are we gonna make this second season? What does it really look like? How does it fit into the actual program of work at the studio? And then also how do how do we drive like a real like like flywheel for marketing ball game? Like, who are those audiences? What are the experiments we're gonna try? And uh, what are the results of those? And are they adding up to something that is a worthwhile investment for a game? And I think that last part of the equation is like I think something that a lot of games devs don't like think about, which is like how much of your time and money are you gonna invest in marketing strategies that work or don't work? And do you have a valuable system for evaluating that? Um other than just like a pray and spray approach, which is I think what a lot of game devs have talked to in the past kind of kind of take along the way.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:15

Um Well, when the games, you know, obviously I'm ready to chat with the team as soon as uh uh you know you're rolling things out or whatever point feels appropriate, because I'd um get into it with them.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:28

I I think Alex and Elliot are endlessly fascinating. Like part of what I love about my job is like talking to them about what they want to make and like how they see building human computers in an entirely new studio in 2026. Like, what does that really look like? Um and they both have worked in software development and marketing and like a bunch of other places that like are interesting crafts. Our team is so like interesting. We've all worked across very different type of types of games. Everyone is just like OP and like super talented. And so, like, I think it results in like this really interesting and weird game that like when I joined the team. Actually, a lot of my colleagues were like, you're gonna get to work on a golf game? Like, you have this like decades-long career of working in narrative games. This is crazy. And I'm like, I know, but like I played the prototype and I just went like, this is so weird and cool that I I would regret not working on it and being part of it and challenging myself to try something new. Um ball game has a demo out. It's on Steam now. Um we will be participating in a couple festivals and that sort of thing uh over the next couple months. And then it'll launch sometime in early 27. We're trying to figure out what that that roadmap looks like. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:32

That's that's that's that's not far at all. That's like tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:36

Yes, exactly. Yeah. So like I was as I was saying earlier, like we're doing these marketing experiments this fall. Like one of them is like we're learning from like other industries. Like uh like I'm endlessly fascinated by what uh podcasters do on social media with like clipping tools and that sort of thing. I'm also fascinated by like uh like fashion influencers and like music uh folks as well and the stuff that they're doing. So like um Alex and I were were talking the other day, and we're like, why don't we just try like a comment to DM workflow, see if that juices are wishless. So that's like the current experiment that we're trying is just like, can we borrow this like normally I comment to get a DM to buy like a sick pair of pants from some woman who looks great in them on Instagram? But we're gonna try that and see if that drives wishlists as well. And so um, that's a lot of what like October and November sort of look like for us is we're just like, here are all of these things that we think get game devs don't typically try to market their game. Let's try that, learn from it, and see if we can raise the raise our our rate of wish listing on the game before we have our next really big beat, which will be like announcing when the game comes out.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:40

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I've absolutely loved this conversation. It was exactly what I hoped it would be. I was just sure. I just didn't, you know, when it when it's like I made this game, and then we're gonna talk about this game, or you know, I wasn't exactly sure where it was gonna go, but I knew off the back of our last conversation that it would it would go exactly where it needed to. So um yeah, I just love getting that insight and I just really appreciate you giving time on this. And again, and now I look forward to sort of seeing how that how the game sort of starts to roll out as well, knowing a little bit more about you know everything that's going out on going on with the back end.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:12

Yeah, thank you, Stephen. I actually like I I really meant it at the beginning. Like, thank you for being interested in this side of game development work because I think it's something that like people don't talk a ton about, or if they do, they talk about in very like here's the top 10 tips on how to market your game, rather than like a nuanced conversation. So like I'm yeah, I'm honored to be here. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:31

I know I love it. I love every facet of this. And this is my this is my way of um uh what's the word, you know, like when you live through your kids or something. Um like living vicariously, or yeah, it's how it gets lived vicariously as part of the through through the games industry and the thing that I sort of care about more than anything, which is video games. It's not I don't care about more than anything, but do you know what I mean? In terms of it's it's pretty it's pretty high up there. So these conversations is just my opportunity to sort of indulge myself in playing around in this stuff. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:06

Well, yeah, yeah. I I wouldn't look at it that way. Like the work that you're doing, I think is like one of the more interesting sort of like new frontiers around the games industry, which is sort of like who's having conversations about games? How are they influencing people to discover new games or new teams or think about games differently? And I think it's a really important part of the industry that like journalism, like games journalism is just like I like I don't I I admire people who are still pursuing a career in it just because it seems like such a dirge right now. And so like these kinds of nuanced conversations I think are really important. They're very educational. I've learned a ton from your podcasts and similar podcasts from it. So um don't think that you're living vicariously. I think you're actually participating in the culture of game development.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:50

I appreciate you correcting me. You know what that is? That's like because in January, when I'm like, you know, uh cold emailing like Richard Le Montchange, you know, the co-lead game designer for Uncharted, I'm like, I wonder if this person will talk to me. And I was totally, I was leveraging my video, my documentary experience to try and justify why we're in the conversation. But you're right, that was like 10 months ago, and they've released like 30 episodes, and maybe I can actually say I'm a part of this thing now. You know what the coolest thing? Sorry to just be talking about myself. Oh, I'm like no, I'm so excited. It's like I and I was waiting for this moment because I knew it would have a thing at some point. It's like going onto like rock, paper, shotgun, and then like seeing an article about an interview that I'd done. And the weird thing is I missed it because it was Josh Sawyer from Obsidian. Yeah. And I saw this article and I was like, oh man, they covered this other interview, but they didn't cover my one. And then I kind of went back to it because they used a different screenshot of him from a different one. And then I read it and I was like, oh my god, they're like writing about my interview with Josh Sawyer. And I was like, this is the this is this is all I ever dreamed of, you know. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:01

I mean, like, it's interesting because I've been reflecting on our conversation quite a bit, like thinking about like talking to you again, because it's like I think we were spending some time talking about like, well, what are like your goals? Like what like what's your like business goal for like what you want to do? And like this is a great example of like something that I think like really supports your business goal. But like, would you ever think to like pitch rock, paper, shotgun on like your episode with Josh Schuler? I don't I don't know. Like, like how did how did that like come about?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:25

Do you think you mean like as in to to so that it's on the radar or to do like an actual written piece? Yeah, no, I started um that one came about organically, but what I've started doing is I do a digest of the interview, um, and then and then kind of like what I what I think they might think is the most clickbait-y stuff. Uh it's as clickbaity, it doesn't get that clickbaity because I'm not, you know, I'm trying to avoid the really obvious thing. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But you know, it's sort of like Clinton Hawking talking about this trick he did in Far Cry 2 to do such and such, you know. Like, and and and yeah, it's been nice seeing it get get picked up, and um that so yeah, that's become a part of it. And I think we spoke about this. I've been thinking a lot about where I should be investing my time, and it was like, oh, should I be doing talks or this or that? And I think because I'm making movies as well, you know, on on the side. Um I'm not I can't remember if it'd been announced when we spoke, but I'm doing this technoblade documentary of Riot Games and this DD thing, so it's kind of like I sort of need to hone my focus, but just doing interviews like these right now just feels like the best. And I hope I'm hoping at some point down the line it'll all sort of start to because like you said, I'm I'm building an audience where when we put out this trade-of-froud DD documentary, hopefully it it's already got it's already gonna garner some interest. Um, what you're doing, just with movies instead of instead of video games.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:55

Yeah, I think that's a a really interesting space for the next couple of years for folks to experiment in, which is sort of like entertainment that builds an audience that is adjacent to like whatever your core business is. I mean, like there's a lot of other industries that have done this for a a long time, like through like their like volunteer efforts or like what community like things that they support. But to me it's really interesting to start to see it happening for like entertainment person purposes where like you have these two parallel paths of like entertainment things that you were doing that like excite people and and pull them more deeper into a universe, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:27

And I think for me it was and I like you, you got I got to have the same experience where I got to say, like, hey dad, my film's on Netflix, go watch it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:36

Did he watch it?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They did.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:38

Oh, great job, Dad. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:41

But but then that that you know the reason that comes to mind is because it's like this that that was a very different time, you know. That was like six years ago, and now it's kind of like my interest is trying to do as direct to audience as as as possible, you know, without the um the stop gap in between of needing to depend on a streamer.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:01

Yeah, and I think that's like becoming more and more the route to where people find the most creative happiness. Um, and it can be hard uh from like a marketing and like promotional perspective, but I think a lot of times if you're doing something that's authentic and meaningful and it's bringing you a lot of personal value, that stuff happens organically. Like people like people who are passionate and making things that they really care about.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:26

That that that's absolutely been my experience. And I just feel like I'm back to making the sorts of things I was doing when I was 14 with my weird that was my weird kid thing. I was like, I wanted edit suite software for my boy birthday.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:40

That is a really great ask. That's hilarious. I love this.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:44

Yeah, yeah, and I got it, which is like that's my parents supporting me.