Mastering The Modern Adventure Game | Francisco Gonzalez (Rosewater, Lamplight City, A Golden Wake)

Introduction: Why We Love Point-and-Click Adventures

SPEAKER_01 0:00

When asked

Meeting Francisco Gonzalez

SPEAKER_01 0:01

the same question about their particular favorite adventure games,

Discovering Adventure Games

SPEAKER_01 0:04

would probably answer in a very similar way. And it's interesting because you've described you described the Fat Island

Historical Fiction and Adventure Games

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Wharf, you described the first island, and what you described was the sensory experience, the the world, the exploration,

Learning Through Adventure Game Studio

SPEAKER_01 0:16

the music, everything. You didn't say puzzles. So yeah, the thing about point and clicks is the

The Ben Jordan Series

SPEAKER_01 0:23

fact that more than anything, they focus on the characters, the story, the memorable

Passion vs Nostalgia in Game Design

SPEAKER_01 0:29

experiences.

SPEAKER_03 0:32

Hi there, my name is Stephen Lake, and welcome to the Examined Game. Today I'm talking with Francisco Gonzalez.

Building Worlds Players Remember

SPEAKER_03 0:37

He is a point and click adventure game creator. He makes games out of Adventure Game Studio. Um, his body of work includes uh Golden Wake,

Why Point-and-Click Games Endure

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Lamplight City, Shard Light, and the more recently Rosewater. I love Francisco's games, they're just like a

The Truth About Adventure Game Puzzles

SPEAKER_03 0:51

beautiful iteration on the classic point-and-click adventures, but simplifying, adding depth, adding so much kind of rich kind of when we get

Evolving Adventure Game Design

SPEAKER_03 0:59

into this, there's this kind of like historical fiction element to what he's doing. A big influence is from the likes of Jane Jensen, Gabriel

Going Commercial with Adventure Games

SPEAKER_03 1:05

Knight Games. We just sort of get into detail about the beauty of point and click video games. So please stick around, please subscribe, rate the episode if you enjoyed it. Thank you very much. Thanks so much for joining me today, Francisco. Um I don't know if you remember we met very briefly uh at PAX East. I actually wouldn't expect you to remember because you'd just done a talk there. I had no idea that you were there, but I sort of was scrambling around trying to get hold of a USB stick that I'd left in the space. And then I'm I'm picking up the latter half of the talk that you're the the panel that you're on, um and and realizing it's like, oh, it's it's it's the guy that made Bandplate City. This is amazing. I was such a huge fan of that that particular game.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

You know, well I appreciate that, yeah. I mean, anytime anytime uh someone says that they know my games, I'm always just taken aback. It that's it's it's still the concept of the fact that someone out there has has found and played one of my games is still kind of uh a shock to me. So so I do appreciate that. Thank you. And you're not wrong in in guessing. I am, yes, I am very firmly uh millennial ex ennial. Uh I'm an elder millennial. So actually, just last night someone was like, How old are you? And I'm like, How old do you think I am? And they were like, I don't want to say that. I'm like, well, I asked this because, and I'm I apologize for starting this interview off on a tangent. But uh please do, that's that's exactly what we're after. I had a I had an experience very recently where I went out with my fiance and a friend of ours to uh to a bar here in Brooklyn, and our friend is about 35, and he looks pretty young. And my fiance is only a year younger than me. I won't say how old, because you know, you never ask a lady her age, but she is a vegan and she has a very youthful face because of her dietary choices. Um and so the bouncer asked the ask asked us for ID. Uh they were ahead of me, so they both gave their ID, and when I went to give him my ID, he said, nah, you're okay. And I said, No! You here! You asked! Look! So I've definitely gotten to that point where I don't um especially if I haven't shaved because my beard comes out all white now. So okay, that can sort of age you a deal.

SPEAKER_03 3:24

I'm just impressed that you're going to a place that has a uh a bouncer at it still.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

That's uh you know, that's well, you know, I think it was because there was it's also like it's a bar slash also comedy venue. So which actually, incidentally, uh another celebrity sighting we were talking briefly before we started recording, uh David Cross was there and came out after his show and just kind of walked past and I was like, oh, it's David Cross. He's shorter than I expected. They will be shorter than you expect.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

They always are, they always are. I don't know why that is. But um Yeah, okay, and so with that in mind, I've I've probably got a pretty good idea of of the names of games you're about to sort of um uh go through when I ask this question. But you know, what I like to start with with um often is just asking people like what is that kind of like and usually there's many memories, but like what's a really good example of a memory of younger you um where the kind of lights are turning on and realizing oh there's something really special going on here with this particular game.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Pitfall on the Atari 2600. Uh we had my my parents had one, we had it very briefly. Unfortunately, it was stolen. Uh someone broke into our house and it was stolen, and so I only have very vague memories of playing on that, but I do remember Pitfall. I connected with Point and Click Adventures probably about the late 80s, early 90s, because I I started playing video games on consoles mostly. Uh after the 2600, my first uh real console was a Sega Master System. Um because I really wanted an NES, but I guess they didn't have them, so I got a Sega Master System instead for a little while. Which was great. I mean I liked playing R-type on that one and like the Ghostbusters game, which was infinitely m superior on the Sega Master System. Um but yeah, at about the that time, um, because we didn't we had a computer, but it was like a 286 or something. It was it was a pretty basic computer, it only had DOS. Um and then I had a cousin who was like really into computers and also liked going to garage sales and would like assemble computers from parts they got at garage sales. And when I was in about fourth grade, which would have been about 1991 or so, uh they they kind of gave us a better computer, and I remember going to like a computer show, uh like a trade show at that time with my cousin's husband, and like we picked up a new sound card and upgraded to a 486, and I had gotten King's Quest IV for I don't think it was yeah, well, it might have been Christmas. I it I don't remember. Anyway, the point is I had been playing King's Quest IV on this old like 286 with the PC speaker, and now all of a sudden we upgraded to a 486 with a sound card, and like I ran King's Quest IV, and the the like the music starts blaring, and I was like, oh my god, this is amazing. Um and that was kind of when I yeah, uh when I started dipping my toe into the adventure games uh more seriously, because I had played like shareware games like Hugo's House of Horrors before that. Of course, that's more you know the parser type game. Um But yeah, but it was actually Dragon Warrior on the NES that kind of bit it was the bug that bit me as far as like really liking that sort of RPG slash adventure quest idea, and just like, oh, I love talking to characters, I love going on these quests, that's really cool, I like this style of game. Um, and then I played King's Quest V on the NES, uh, and at that point I was like, oh, I really like this kind of game, and then I sort of thought I would like to make this kind of game, but it wasn't until many, many, many years later that I actually got the opportunity to start doing that.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

So yeah. That's great. Yeah, very uh yeah, a lot of uh similarities in lineage there, you know. Um again in terms of that millennial of a certain age, you know, Hugo's Method House of Horror, and then onto King's Quest, and then you know, I'm shooting and then obviously the the the corresponding Lucas Arts games. I think I read on you know your site you you mentioned um Gabriel Knight Sins of the Father as well. I I recently replayed that. Um it's a it's a such an evocative uh visceral game.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

The thing I love so much about that game that I think has been a huge influence on my own work is that and it's funny because Jane Jensen has said retroactively that when they made that game she had never been to New Orleans. Like they made that entire game based just on I think pictures in books that they had looked at. But that does very interesting. That game does such a good job of like evoking a sense of place. I went, I mean, the whole reason I went to New Orleans for the first time was because I thought it was really cool from Gabriel Knight. And like it's one of my favorite cities to visit still to this day. I just went last year for like the sixth time. Uh and yeah, it's really it's I don't want to say mundane because mundane sounds d derogatory, but like I would say just more it's not a fantasy it's a realistic setting. It's not a fantasy setting like King's Quest or sci-fi like Space Quest or whatever. It's a real city, and you have this feeling that you're actually in the city and exploring it as you're playing it, and just yeah, that that evocative ambience of the of the game is just really, really cool, and I've always liked that, and and I've always strived to achieve that same sense of place in all of my games. So kudos to Jade Jensen for that.

SPEAKER_03 9:23

I mean I it's so funny. I did literally the same thing. I got to go to New Orleans in 2010, and I just my only point of reference, I mean I'd seen it in movies, but it was like Gabriel Knight. The same thing I went over to France when I was like a year into university, and I like went way out of my way to go to the um I I've forgotten the name of the Red Light Chateau. Remember the Chateau into Ren the Chateau. I have yet to Gabriel Knight. Yeah, it's it's it's so because um because the the game is literally like they kind of map out the entire village, right? Like it's not it's not one for one the exact same, but you you you kind of feel like you're walking through a I and I know Ren the Chateau existed for Game of Night 3, but you feel like you're you're walking through a fully rendered uh like physical environment of of this game. It's it's it's it's really something, you know, and and it's a testament to her the research and attention to detail because obviously she sort of steeps her work in to a certain degree, you know, real life history, then mixed with kind of myth. Um but yeah, I can see that that that influence. I suppose with your work you then go on to kind of like um you know, because it's interesting looking at your catalogue again and realizing like, oh, it's a very um it's not like you just sit in like sci-fi, you know, or or fantasy or whatever. You seem to sort of jump uh genres and uh time periods with your games.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yeah, I tr I I I yeah, I try and and do something a little different. I feel like they all have at their core that element of like historical fiction. Because I mean a golden wake is probably the most historical one, obviously, because it's set in an actual real place at an actual real time with actual real people. But even Shard Light, which is you know post-apocalyptic future, it still has elements because I mean the villains in that are based on the French aristocracy, mostly because you know, I'm an idiot and I like Fops and I like that whole aesthetic of like the powdered wigs and stuff, and I thought, oh, that would be fun to have as villains and stuff, right? Isn't that great? Uh yeah, but yeah, but like Lamplight City and Rosewater, even though they're alternate history, it still is very much rooted in actual historical things. It's just adapted to fit into this historical alternate history thing. Because like, you know, uh in Lamplight City you have this anti-steam tech group that's mentioned called the Red Its, which are obviously based on the Luddites. Um and Rosewater also deals with you know things that were in parallel to the actual American Westward expansion and you know, like the the the sort of uh I don't I mean I guess politics is the right word, but like yeah, so like you know, when you get to uh El Presidio and Rosewater, which is the stand-in for San Francisco, it also sort of deals a little subly with I I I'm I don't know, have you played Rosewater? Have you gotten into Okay? Yeah, so like when you get to spoilers for anyone who hasn't, it's not super spoilery, but when you get to El Presidio, there's uh depending on who you have with you, there are certain paths that you can follow to get into uh club, and one of the paths involves dealing with a sort of syndicate in Chinatown that has this conflict with a labor union, and that's actually based on real historical fact, because at the time there was these very anti-immigrant, specifically anti-Chinese immigrant uh sentiments in the West, and labor unions specifically did not allow Chinese uh people to join because of that particular sentiment. So that that sort of conflict between those factions was very much rooted in in historical fact as well. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:28

It's it's interesting, you you sort of get me thinking about it, you know, it it's not as binary as there just being two sort of sets of say point and click adventure games, but you know, there's there's I think about the likes of like whatever say like Tim Schaefer or Bon Gilbert are making, you know, you've got Monkey Island or Day of the Tentacle, Grim Fandango, that are very sort of like you know, they're not they're not set and being grounded in yeah, there might be influences like say with Grim Fandango, Day of the Dead, or whatever, but they're they're very much kind of in and of their own worlds, and then you do have the likes of of Jane Jensen or um um Charles Cecil, you know, Broken Sword is I think is another really good example of a game that's so it grounds itself in like in in real history as as does your work, but I I don't know what I'm sort of getting at with that. I just don't think I've ever really thought so much that actually there is sort of a a kind of uh it it's it's almost its own sort of category of of point and click, you know, that chooses to sort of steep itself so well in uh as you say, like historical fiction, you know, you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Yeah, I was I was gonna mention Christy Marks as well, who I think is one of the more underrated Sierra designers. She did Conquest of the Longbow and Conquest of Camelot, Conquest of the Longbow being one of my favorite uh Sierra adventures as well. And I mean that's interesting because it's both historical and myth, because obviously it's you know King Arthur and Camel in Camelot going after the Holy Grail and the Conquest of the Longbow being the Robin Hood myth. So yeah, that's really cool.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

I actually heard about those games. I mean, I'm I'm I've played some the the sort of the the big well-known classics of Sierra, but it feels like every year I sort of find out about a new brilliant Sierra game.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

There's a lot of them. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:15

Um and then so you uh Yeah, so you talk about that sort of desire to want to make games like this and then bridging the gap, and then uh my assumption is or at least from what's seen, and I know a lot of the the folks that make work through Adventure Games Studio, you know, is used to started making kind of test rooms and mini-games and start just sharing that kind of content out there and sort of getting, I'm guessing, some kind of positive response from from what you were doing, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Yeah, so so my journey with Adventure Game Studio started in about 2000 2000, 2001. I was in college, uh, I was looking for something to do that wasn't study, uh, and I happened to find Adventure Game Studio uh by just Googling it, googling Adventure Game Maker, and I found Adventure Game Studio. And I had sort of had a couple of false starts previously. I had used click and play that a friend had given me a copy of in high school to kind of try and make games, but obviously that that program was more suited to platformers and things like that. It wasn't really a point-and-click adventure designed engine. You could sort of make a facsimile, but it wasn't very good. Um it didn't respond too well to the actual clicking of the mouse, which is kind of important if you're making a point-and-click game.

SPEAKER_03 16:34

Uh you could do the pointing, you just can't do the second half.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Yeah, exactly. Um, and there was also uh uh engine in development called Scram, uh it which was kind of like a scum uh based thing. But that was uh that never really had any uh uh results, I guess, because there was never any there wasn't even like a demo, it was just sort of like people hanging out on a forum being like, well, maybe it'll come out today, maybe you know, we'll some progress or something. I don't know. Anyway, the point is I moved on from that. Although funnily enough, I did uh m uh make the acquaintance of some people on the for on that forum who actually then migrated to AGS and like we became friends after that. And yeah. But anyway, I found Adventure Game Studio, and the most important thing the most important quality that it had was that there were games already finished. Uh so it was obvious that you could produce a complete game with the features that this engine offered. Um the games in question had been made by Ben Yahtzee Crosshaw, who has now gone on to, you know, work or be associated with uh zero punctuation, which is funny. Um and so I played one of his games, I don't remember which one. There was one that was like a sci-fi series, sci-fi comedy series called Rob Blank, and the other one was a series called Reality on the Norm, which was also a comedy series that was based in like a little English village, and it was a community project where people were encouraged to make their own games and upload their assets, and the art was in a very simple style, so you didn't have to really draw that well, so you could make your own background and add it to the to the to the resource of the resource file of or resource pool of backgrounds on character sprites and things like that. So yeah, I got my start making a few little games in that series. Um I made uh uh the first game I think I made in just uh a week called The Lost Treasure of Reality on the Norm or a Pirate Comes to Town. A pirate named Hookie McPegleg comes to town and tries to find the lost treasure of reality on the norm. At the end of the game, he becomes the postman because um there had been a game where like the postman was murdered, so they needed a postman. You know, all the stories kind of interwove, which was a fun thing. So then the second game I made was Hookie McPegleg Pirate Postman, where he's the postman, but the thing is he's a pirate, so he's illiterate, and he has to learn how to read first in order to deliver the mail, and then he encovers uncovers a conspiracy or something. These were games you could finish in like two hours, so it wasn't anything but it it definitely one taught me how to use the engine and how to make a game, uh, and two, just kind of got me thinking about how to design an adventure game. At that time, it was just, oh, I've played some adventure games, I know they have wacky puzzles and things like that. Let me try doing something like that. So I didn't really put too much thought into the the deep uh intricacies of narrative or puzzle design or anything like that. I was just having fun and and experimenting. Um which I guess is kind of what everyone should do in all aspects of anything they want to pick up.

unknown 20:04

Anyway.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

And it's not about disappearing for however long and and only you know resurfacing when you've got what you consider to be this sort of like um well-polished sort of piece. It's it's it's about kind of showing your workings, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, at that time too, I was only on the reality on the norm forums, even though that was pretty active and there was people on there. But then after I made a couple the first couple of games, I decided to then join the Adventure Game Studio Forums and the AGS IRC channel, and that's really where I started building this sense of community and meeting other people who had not only played but well, not only heard of, but actually played adventure games, because I didn't know anybody growing up. I think I knew one guy in middle school who had played Monkey Island 2, and he spoiled the ending for me, and I didn't really care because I hadn't played it yet. Uh but yeah, I think I yeah, I knew one guy in school, and then actually there was there was another guy who I remember trading the discs of. I I we like swapped for a weekend. I swapped him Space Quest V for Police Quest II. And I had never played a Police Quest game before, so I was intrigued. Uh it was Did you have the manual? I I should have he fo I think he photocopied the manual for me, yes. Okay, yeah. Uh so at the very least I had the copy protection. Um But yeah, it was it was it was amazing because it was like, wow, I found my people finally. I've you know, I remember I remember like when I was in college, I think I had a phone card. Someone had given me a phone card to because back then, you know, we still had long distance to worry about. Uh and I remember using my phone card to call someone from the AGS IRC channel in New York, because I was in Florida, and we would were just we just talked about adventure games, and I was like, this is really weird and but really cool. Um so yeah, there was definitely the AGS forums had this great sense of community, and yeah, there was there were sub forums like the Critics Lounge, which still exists to this day, where people would post their art and get feedback and or just ideas and things like that. Um and of course, you know, the games in production thread where you would post about the game you were making and works in progress and and get feedback on that as well. Um so yeah, after I after I made a few I made one more reality on the Norm game about an Italian chef, and then I decided I wanted to do something else, and that's about where my I want to make a Gabriel Knight game really kicked in. And so I made the Ben Jordan Paranormal Investigator series, um, which is basically just a series about a kid named Ben Jordan who wants to become a paranormal investigator, but I wanted to I wanted to make it more about historical well historical um basically base it on actual uh folklore and legends, uh not just uh sort of monster of the week, oh he's fighting vampires and or werewolves or whatever. Um so yeah, I started off by making one about the skunk ape, the Sasquatch that supposedly lives in the Florida Everglades, because it was it was close by and I knew something about it. Um and yeah, I ended up making over the course of eight years, I made eight games, two remakes, so ten games total. Um and yeah, that's really where I kind of made a name for myself in the indie adventure game community because thankfully people really liked the Ben Jordan games. Um it was kind of cool that people not only liked them, but they anticipated more of them because I guess I kind of showed that I wasn't going to just make one and then disappear. I kept making them, and I kept showing that I was going to make them, and even though each one took more and more time to make, um, the last one ultimately taking four years because I got uh a full-time job and I didn't really have the time as much time as I had before. Um people stuck with it and they they liked it. And like I actually got uh coverage, press coverage in in in uh you know, websites like Adventure Gamers, Rest in Peace, and other indie adventure sites and stuff. So yeah, that was that was really that was really cool.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

Is there is there something that you think that you were sort of bringing to the table like back then that you're sort of you're you're still doing now or iterating on now the games that you're like that there's there's obviously there's something about what you're doing that people are gravitating towards responding to um in a genre that has a lot of um content being generated, yeah. Do you have you sort of been able to put your finger on what it is about your games that and this this is a tough question because it requires you to potentially talk well about yourself? My experience with with talking with game devs is it's usually that they love talking about other people's uh you know what they do, right? But but a little harder for themselves. But do you you know do you have a sense of what your sort of magic source is?

SPEAKER_01 26:05

I don't. I don't, and that's a very good question. The thing I don't I yeah, I don't know. I mean The thing with the Ben Jordan series is that for better or for worse, I was definitely trying to ape Gabriel Knight. There's there's a very interesting phenomenon that I've noticed in the development of that series. The the game the first two games I just sort of made as I I was making it up as I went along. I had no idea how many of them I was gonna make. I had no idea for any sort of overarching story. I knew I wanted it to be a series, I knew I wanted it to be about each game being set in a different location, being about a different thing. It wasn't until the third game that I actually sat down and wrote out uh an outline for what would end up being the series Bible. I remember that the third game was the one that I had the most fun making. Um not just because what it uh it was a it was based in Scotland and it was about witches. I had never been to Scotland. I st I now have been to Scotland, I realized how how many things I got wrong. But I made it over a summer when I was I was at it was in college, I had I was taking summer classes, so I was I basically had my apartment to myself because I don't think any of my roommates were there most of the time. I was just hanging out, having a great time. In my spare time I would work on this game, and I just I remember, you know, getting music from the composer and being just wowed by it. Everything about that production of that game just was great, and I had a great time making it, and it by and large is most people's favorite entry in the series. Now, contrast that with number five, which was the one said in Japan about zombies. That one was where I was really trying to ape Gabriel Knight. Like there was a day structure, there was this whole police procedural aspect, and that was the one that I came closest to just burning out and saying, I don't want to make any more of these games. Because at some point it just felt tedious and I just didn't want to do it anymore. And I I powered through it and I finished, and then when I made the next one, which was set in Greece, which was actually more or less based on an actual trip to Greece that I went on, then I sort of got my my creative flow back. And I consider, and I think if you asked anyone, they would probably consider the the fifth case to be probably the weakest one in the series. So I this is all to say that I think that probably what I and and it's not unique to me, because I other developers obviously are passionate about what they're doing, I think the developer's passion for or interest in the particular subject of the game is what draws people to it. Because there's certainly a subset of indie adventure gamers and possibly developers who set out to make the next Monkey Island or the next Gabriel Knight or the next insert popular nostalgic title here. And maybe they just think, oh, I want to capture that same vibe, but they don't necessarily think about what they are going to add to it. And so it comes off and I'm not like I'm not citing specific examples here, I'm just presenting this as a general thing. But if you set out to make a game, I guess it's kind of like vibe coding, right? Like if you just if you set out to make a game just based on I want to recapture that vibe of nostalgia, then it might not pan out as well as if you go out, if you come in thinking, well, I want to do this, and I also would like to capture this feeling. Like, okay, I will give an example, and I'll and I give this example because I worked on this game. Uh Foolish Mortals. Foolish Mortals came out last year. Foolish Mortals is very much, you can see that it wears its influences on its sleeve. It's very much inspired by the curse of Monkey Island and the Haunted Mansion. But it's not just the developers of that game obviously love Monkey Island, but they didn't say, oh, we want to make the next Monkey Island. They said we want to make a game that's inspired by the same idea of Monkey Island being inspired by, say, Pirates of the Caribbean, but we want to do the Haunted Mansion. And they brought their own their own thing to the table. And yeah, it works. And you can tell that it that they're passionate about it, and it's been very well received because people playing it pick up on that as well. So yeah, I don't know. Uh for me personally, I just I just pick games and and ideas that I just really feel excited about and try to maintain that momentum. I don't I don't think, oh, what's what's in right now? Oh, I guess I should make a game about this because this is popular right now, and then you know, halfway through the the the production think, ugh, I don't really want to make this. I was very, very lucky with Rosewater in that it was it took six years to make that game. It's the longest production cycle on any game I've ever made, and yet I never got tired of it or frustrated with it or annoyed with it. I just I kept at it and it was it was I underestimated how long it was going to take. But I I felt that it was worthwhile throughout the whole development. I never I never second guessed or thought why am I making this or anything like that. So yeah, and I mean, you know, I've been very lucky that people seem to also have picked up on that from playing it. So yeah. Um so I don't know that there's any one particular thing. I just I just try and like what I'm doing, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

I mean that's that's yeah, that's really interesting. And I think you're right, I think Polish Mortals is a really good example of that. I think about I think about what it is that makes me click buy now on a on a a particularly specific adventure point and click adventure game. I there's there's a lot of types of games that I'll buy based on a review, um, like a written, you know, from published review with point and click, it's always comes down to the Steam reviews. Um well like sometimes I'll just go I actually I don't I don't so much go off of the um the the images of the trailers anymore just because like I'm so desperate to recapture the feeling that I felt, you know, when I sort of played these games that I loved in my my childhood, but whilst at the same time, like I'm not I'm not looking to play that exact same game again, right? Because you know, like who has the patience for like that interface and all of those sorts of things, you know. Um but it it's just interesting you're saying that about having a sort of a passion and and love for what you're doing because that seems to sort of drip feed down to the the people that then engage with the the game and then sort of want to share with others, um, you know, in in those Steam reviews. I I think I think um point-and-click adventure game uh fans are sort of conscientious about the fact that people are sort of looking, you know, for a certain sort of vibe, you know. Um and actually with your games, the first one I played was was Lamplight City, um which again was sort of based off of that, just that that hint of an idea that there's gonna be something special here, and it really didn't disappoint. It was such uh thanks. There's there's games that I enjoy, and then there's ones that I just feel like have taken it to another level, and I I couldn't even tell you why it was, but it was just that mix of the sort of the it had the investigative arm to it, but it wasn't like overly complicated. Um like you said about Gabriel Knight, it felt like uh uh I was just jumping into a lived in world and city, you know, um, and then I was able to sort of go back in the wait for for Rosewater and then you know play um Shard Light and a Golden Wake. Um again with games which I I sort of just like ate up, you know. But I I just think it's an interesting because and again not to sort of say any specific examples, but it's it's it's a tough genre, right, to to get right because it feels like the margin of error between something that's like engaging and iterating on the old whilst giving people what they want is is quite thin.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Yeah, it's a very thin line to walk. Um because yeah, like you say, there is a lot of nostalgia still in this genre, um, for better and for worse. I don't want to get on my soapbox about nostalgia and its uh its negative effects. But yeah, I mean when you were saying that, I I was thinking too about like as far as the passion for a subject, because I mean the thing that I love about adventure games is that they're a great medium for storytelling and they're a great medium for exploration, because in an adventure game you can establish a world or a setting or what have you that isn't necessarily just run-of-the-mill normal thing or or genre-based. You can do really unique things with it. And if you have a particular passion or a particular interest in a specific thing, you can build an adventure game around that. And of course, you know, you also have to have some sort of general market appeal if you want people to play it. Obviously, if you're interested in I don't know, I can't think of a specific Well, okay, I'll use a specific example. Let's talk about the Crimson Diamond. The Crimson Diamond, I know you have Leah on, she's great. Yes. Yeah. And the Crimson Diamond is market appeal. It's a cozy mystery game that looks like the old EGA Sierra games, and it's a text parser, and on the surface you see that and you think, oh, this is intriguing. But then you have the whole mineralogy aspect, and it's clear that Julia is very interested in mineralogy, and she incorporates it into the game in a really interesting way. Now, if the game had been just like mineralogy simulator, that would have been and very, you know, very dry and just like, oh, this is this is rocks about this and this, it would have been like an edutainment game about mineralogy, and is fine, but like that's not gonna have necessarily general appeal. But if you frame it as, oh, it's uh it's a it's a mystery, you know, then already there you have but it's not just oh it's a generic ripoff of the Colonel's bequest. It's a very unique thing because it's set in a very unique period. How many other games have you played that are set in in 1910s, Ontario, right? About a mineralogist who just happens to be investigating uh mystery about uh Diamond, right? So so yeah, that is really cool. And then yeah, it's I mean it was the same thing with me with Lamplight City. I didn't set out to say, oh, I want to make a game like Gabriel Knight. I thought I want to make a detective game. I want to make a detective game that's set in the 19th century because I love that vibe of just the the fog, the foggy streets and the the the the clash of like the the poor and the rich and the all this stuff. And it just sort of took that pastiche of or all those elements and thought, okay, well I want to make it I want to make something like this, but I don't want to make it specifically, oh, it's London, oh it's New York or whatever. So that's why I did the alt history thing. Um and yeah, the as far as because I wanted to evoke the same mood, I thought, well, you know what, I'll just lift the aesthetic of Gabriel Knight with the close-up portraits and the things and the the letter beans and that sort of thing. But I want it to feel like its own thing, which hopefully I achieved. Um so it doesn't just feel like a Gabriel Knight fangame or anything like that. Uh but yeah, I think, yeah, just going back to that the point of yeah, it's it's hard to it's hard to find a way to do something unique because obviously, you know, people will always fall back on, oh, it reminds me of Monkey Island, or it reminds me of Broken Sword. I always joke that those are the two the two Ur texts that always get mentioned. But at the same time, too, it always frustrates me. I'm gonna get on my soapbox a little bit. It always frustrates me when people say, just like as an offhand comment, like, oh, you should add an Easter egg, where like George Stobart comes out or something, and it's like, why would I go to make this game to remind you of another game that you like better that you could be playing now? Like that just sort of shoots myself in the foot. So anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:14

That works when it's like Indiana Jones and you've got a totem pole that's got Sam and Max on it, since it's all within you know Lucas Art because of a yeah, drawing people's attention away from um Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

If I put a purple tentacle in my game, it's like, no, that's yeah, okay, I know. I played these games too, but no, I'm not trying to tell you yet. I mean, the but the very fact that you're playing my adventure game should inform you that I am aware of the can the previous canon. I don't need to slap you across the face with it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

I think what you said about Julius' game is that it's exactly right. I hadn't quite investigated what it was about it I I I loved so much. And again, I think it's just something that's hard to put into words. It's the same, like with say Caffey Rain, you know. Right. Um, but but you're you're right, it is a blending of things. It's almost like there's a few different things that are all being done really well there. But that the the min was it mineralogist, yeah. The min, you know, that that is a a sort of an element to it that I hadn't thought about because it's so um it I don't know, I I assume that she knows what she's talking about and that she hasn't just made things up, but it feels so uh real that it just like it adds a level of um depth. And and actually this brings up another thing, which is that these games can add so much depth and realism and and not have to lean on graphical like quality to I mean the the games are like beautiful. Uh they're all you know, your games like hers, that's just absolutely stunning. Oh but it it's it's it's not a fidelity thing that's gonna make them better, right? It's it's it's it's a it's a beautiful art style blended with a very deep sort of um I don't know, lore and and framework that that that the characters within these worlds um exist in.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

Yeah, um it's yeah, I I guess it's just uh yeah, I don't know. It's it's it's it's a lot to mix together to hopefully put together uh something uh something pleasant for people to play. But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:22

And is there is there anything in particular that you sort of find in terms of feedback or positive reflections you get from players that you hear come back to you more often than not? You know, is it they uh are you finding that they're often feeding back about the the the characters or the puzzles or you know, again the sort of the historical richness? Um I mean I'm assuming you get a bit of a smogsborg of of of feedback, but I'm just curious what what stands out to you when people write to you about about your games?

SPEAKER_01 42:52

Um yeah, I mean I don't get a ton of of like fan mail or feedback in that sense. Um I mean I mostly kind of glance at the Steam reviews every now and then and try not to get too depressed. Uh but yeah, I mean I I think I think people appreciate, especially in the last two games, like the world building, which I'm happy about. Um you know, with I was gonna I forgot to mention with Lamplight City, um, you know, one of the things that I looked towards as far as building a convincing world um despite it being a completely fictional setting was Dishonored. I think the world building in the Dishonored series is amazing, and that's really what I was what I was looking to. Um obviously a completely different genre, but uh but still like it sh the world building still can carry over. Um so yeah, uh yeah, I mean it I'm I'm just happy when people say, Hey, I liked your game, you know. They don't necessarily need to go into detail. They could as long as they're like, Hey, I enjoyed your game, you know.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

That's great. Thanks. I mean that must be very, very satisfying. It it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

I mean I I I'm I still can s like I said, I still consider the fact that people are are playing my games like and they know them. That's that's just insane to me still, you know.

SPEAKER_03 44:17

So uh and you know, without getting too broad, this is a quite a big broad question, but and I uh don't know that I can answer it yet for myself, but I'll think about it, it's like why like what is it about point and click games that just like you know, because because when when you're sort of when you find them, you know, again, those classics like Monkey Island or Bracket Sword or or things from the Sierra, like there's just nothing quite like them. Um but I don't know if you yourself have an understanding of what it is that sort of drew you so strongly to them compared to like shooters or strategy games, or not that you you may play those as well, but I don't play adventure games much anymore because I make them all day, so I don't want to play them.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

What I gravitate towards, and I've always gravitated towards outside of the adventure genre is stuff like mostly just like third-person action adventure games like Assassin's Creed or Uncharted or things like that. Um but even those games, like the thing that's drawn me to them has been the stories and the environments, more so than anything like combat or or things like that. Um, and obviously, like like I mentioned, Dishonored, you know, the same thing. Like I just love those worlds and those stories. So yeah, the thing about pointing clicks is the fact that more than anything, they focus on the characters, the story, the memorable experiences. Um yeah, the thing too about puzzles is and this is a whole other topic and a whole other rant, because I have sort of been uh so I mentioned before that when I started making the making games, I didn't give too much thought to the the more intricate elements of design because I was just kind of playing it by ear and thinking, okay, well, this is what the games I played did, I can do something similar. I didn't think too much about, for instance, integrating puzzles into the story in a in an organic way or anything like that. It was just like, oh, here's a puzzle, here's somewhere I can put a puzzle, let's put in a distraction puzzle or something like that, right? So I don't necessarily, and especially with Rosewater and Lamplight City, the puzzles were not the forefront of those games. I mean, Rosemater ha Rosewater had more puzzles than Lamplight City, certainly. But the complexity of the puzzles in those games was not something like what you might expect in the the classic adventure game. So of course the the more traditionalist or hardcore adventure game fans often di say that the puzzles are too simple or too linear or whatever. Which fair. Um My current game that I'm making is a lot more focused on non-linear multiple puzzle chain design, which is something I haven't done uh I actually don't think I've ever really done, because Shard Light had puzzles, but it was kind of just here's the puzzles you're doing at this particular time. Actually, no, that's not true. Golden Wake had had multiple puzzle chains, they were just kind of simple. But anyway. Um But the thing I always think about when uh with regards to what what we were saying about like thinking about the old classics is when you think back to point and clicks and you cite Oh I'll ask you, what are some of your favorite point and clicks and why? What about them re what about them stands out to you?

SPEAKER_03 48:11

I mean, when you say it, if I don't overthink it, the first one that just flashes into my mind is um Monkey Island 2. Okay, you know, and I'm seeing the imagery at the um is it it's not Fat Island, I can't remember. It's the one, it's the the island with the with the jail, you get locked up in it. Yeah, yeah, that's Fat Island. It's when you first walk in and you've got the sort of the the the the cobblestone path that goes around and then there's the wharf. Right. Wharf, like this is an example, uh side tangent. I didn't know what a wharf was. I I learned how to read and and get a dictionary of words just from playing Monkey Island, yeah. Because it was like Wharf. I was like, what's a wharf? Oh, it's like the doc thing that you know, anyway. So so Monkey Island 2 um comes to mind, and why I'm just I'm just really trying to dig into and again, why is that so burnt into my my memory? You know, honestly, it was like colorful and vibrant um and sort of playful. And if I think about it, my first time playing it was around Kevin Webley's house, my neighbour, you know, that he's my conduit, you know, entry point to these games. And I didn't I was too young to get it, but I knew, and maybe that's a bit like a five-year-old seeing someone play Fortnite now, I'm not sure, but like I was too young to get it, I was older than five, but like but I knew that I desperately wanted to um understand it and and and play it. And I remember the puzzle in the alleyway where there's the hand um doing the different signals for you to sort of get in the door and just trying to sort of like it was just way beyond my comprehension.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

But well, uh that that puzzle is ridiculous. That I it didn't it is it's one of the silly ones, right? Yeah, I I think I I think I played Monkey Island 2 like at least 20 times before I discovered what the logic of that puzzle was.

SPEAKER_03 50:11

I just I owned the same, I replayed it last year and I still couldn't remember it. But to answer the question, I think it was always the promise. It was the promise of what's next when you sort of get through that next door, when you get through that next thing, when you get the library card, when you get the you know, the monkey wrench, all of that stuff. Like there was so much promise.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

What would you say is your fondest memory of Monkey Island 2? Like when when someone says to you, What is your favorite element or what's the thing you remember most about Monkey Island 2? What would you say that is?

SPEAKER_03 50:47

It's probably the beginning, it's the it's the first um it's the first island. Okay, you know, when you're when you're you lose all your money and just walking between the meeting Wally, that environment, that space, those characters, the music changing when you go into the um the bar, and then the the monkey playing the organ, all of that stuff. Um and then and then the the riding the c the coffin, you know. Um, you know, such visceral memories. Yeah, I think it's it's that.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

So that's very interesting that you say that. And I think a lot of people would probably I'm gonna generalize very much here. So I could be completely wrong, but this is my this is my theory right now. I think a lot of people would when asked the same question about their particular favorite adventure games, would probably answer in a very similar way. And it's interesting because you've described you described the Fat Island Wharf, you described the first island, and what you described was the sensory experience, the the world, the exploration, the music, everything. You didn't say puzzles. I feel like I feel like when people talk about classic adventure games, when they talk about puzzles, they talk about puzzles they hated. I really hated that puzzle in the dig where you have to make the skeleton. I can't stand that puzzle in Monkey Island 2 where you have to figure out the hand combination. Like, how is I supposed to know that I had to put together a a mood ring or sorry, a fish magnet, a severed hand, and a golf thing in Salmon Max to get the mood ring out of the ball of twine, right? I I very rare Oh, and of course, the puzzle that shall not be named, the cat hair mustache puzzle from Gabriel Knight 3, right? Very rarely do you hear someone say, Oh man, I love that puzzle in Loom. Well, Loom is a good example because Loom is, I think when people talk about the puzzles in Loom, they say, I love that bit in Loom where I realized I could play a draft backwards and undo the water spout. Or, you know, but nobody ever says, Oh, I love that puzzle in Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis where you have to do this or whatever. Oh, well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and I'm not saying that I'm not saying that that the puzzles in Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis are all bad. I mean, certainly there are some that are better than others. But my my running theory here is that I feel like a lot of people have more rose-colored glasses than anything else about the puzzles in classic adventure games. I'm not saying that like modern adventure games shouldn't have puzzles, but I feel like there's this sort of memory of what puzzles should be based on the fact that they were also very kind of not well communicated and illogical in that sense. And yeah, I don't know. I mean, I recently did uh a study series.

SPEAKER_03 53:46

Just to say, I think that's a really interesting point about what you you asked me that question. I mean, given and you're right, not nothing to do with it was about the puzzles.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

Yeah, yeah. Um I I recently did a a study series where I played through some of my favorite uh classic adventure games. I played Curt The Curse of Monkey Island, I played Leisure Suit Larry 7, not because it's my favorite, but because I think it's one of the better designed Sierra games, and Day of the Tentacle, which I think is still like a masterclass in puzzle design. And I analyzed, I th I as I played them, I kind of was thinking about like how the puzzle chains worked, how it's set up, what you're allowed to do at any given time, and most importantly, how the game communicates to you what you should be doing. Because I think that the biggest problem that people have with puzzles in adventure games and regarding the difficulty of puzzles in adventure games is that the game doesn't necessarily always tell you what you should be doing. And it again, it's a very fine balance between telling a player what they should be doing and telling a player what they have to do. Right? So, like as opposed to like, oh, this door is locked, maybe I should find a way to unlock it, as opposed to there's a key in the next room that you can use to unlock this door. So, yeah, um the thing with the I I again went off on this tangent about puzzle design, but yeah, I think that that the trickiest thing of adventure about adventure game design is A making puzzles that make sense, B communicating properly to the player that they're without holding their hand so that there's some challenge, and C integrating them in a way if this with the story that makes sense and doesn't just feel like you're throwing in a puzzle just for the sake of throwing in a a puzzle to pad game time or to just present uh some form of gameplay. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:51

I think I think that's and it that's really interesting, and it makes you think about say like Ron Gilbert's more later games, you know, like The New Monkey Island or Thimberweed Park, where they're still they're very puzzly games, but he's definitely iterated on you know the you have the checklist, you have like the the helpline or whatever. Like it it it it it's not about uh trying to sort of resurrect that sort of slightly lost feeling of not knowing which two two inventory items to combine. And that he's someone who you know built this game that that we all adore, but understands that you sort of have to move on from that and exactly like you were saying, sort of iterate and and give people. I mean, my favorite thing is you know, is when now the adventure games some adventure games are just reduced down to one mouse click, you know, you don't even have a a right-click option, you know, and that's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:45

I gave a talk at Adventure X a few years ago about um modifying adventure game design to be more positive and give more positive feedback instead of just saying no all the time. And as part of that, I gave a case study from Shard Light where I realized if you have that two-click interface where usually it's left click to interact and right-click to look, nobody right-clicks. Everybody forgets that you can right-click. And the problem with that is that for Shard Light specifically, a lot of like the hints and the clues were hidden in that or those right-click messages. So not having access to those or not seeing those because you weren't right-clicking meant that you had no idea what you were supposed to be doing. So, yeah, I'm very much a fan of the single-click interface. Um, I mean, as you probably can tell if you played Lamplight City in Rosewater. But I realized too that a lot of people feel like minimizing the UI means that it's simplifying the gameplay. But I disagree because uh it feels you know, if you have those verbs, if you're gonna have the verbs, you also should write a unique response for every single possible interaction. And yeah, that sounds impossible because it can be, but if you're just gonna give a generic response, why would you bother having that interaction in there anyway, in the first place? So I'm I'm a fan of just having a context-sensitive menu that when you click on something, you get a list of possible verbs, and each of those will give you a unique response or a nudge in the right direction or what have you. So I think that's a lot more engaging than just sitting there being like, oh, what if I click this inventory item on this, and then the player says, I can't do that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:32

Just the same. Oh well, I mean, but it made brings to mind broken sword and the fact that you can you can show your like disgusting tissue to every single character, and every single one of them will give you a different thing.

SPEAKER_01 58:43

Yeah, that's great. Um but then broken broken sword also has has the opposite of that, where if you click on anything in the environment, George just shrugs. He doesn't even give you a response. He just shrugs.

SPEAKER_03 58:58

He just goes around funny that you don't compare these things of the shrugging American. Yeah, yeah. Um and I guess just to just to sort of end up to ask what you know, you talked a little bit about it, about you know, whatever the the next project you're you're working on. And I don't know how much you you're able to talk about it, but just what when um you know, for each project are you sort of thinking, oh, there's this sort of thing or approach you talked about, you know, the the um nonlinear, you know, puzzles and things like that. Is it is it say with Rosewater, where you're like, oh, I want to iterate on this, or I want to bring in this kind of slightly kind of RPG element, or do you do you always have in the back of your mind a sort of checklist of of um mechanics that you'd like to sort of um weave into your next project?

SPEAKER_01 59:46

Yeah, I I wouldn't call it necessarily a checklist of mechanics, but I definitely always approach a new project with the thought of what can I do differently this time around? Um with Lamplight City, so yeah, a Golden Wake was my first commercial foray into or my first foray into commercial games. So it was kind of just okay, I'm making a I'm making a game for the first time and I'm asking people to buy it. What can I do? And so I wanted to, it was a very interesting setting and story for me, to me personally, uh, having grown up in Miami and being familiar with its history. So that was kind of just me throwing the kitchen sink and trying to do what I could, and uh, you know, I wanted to make the setting unique and the characters unique and all that. With Shard Light, it was it was more okay, well, I've done the history thing, let's let's try a different genre, because I had never done anything sort of post-apocalyptic or anything like that before. So that was and it was also a collaboration because I worked with Ben Chandler on that game. So we it was also my experience of working on a team. Um and then Lamplight City, yeah, I wanted to I wanted to play with the idea of making a detective game where you could get things wrong and where your actions had consequences in the context of being an investigator and what that meant as far as you know the the usual trope of an investigation game or any adventure game really is that like if you have characters where you can talk to them and it's possible to insult them, they sort of just either shrug it off or or whatever, they have amnesia the next time you try and talk to them. And I wanted to play around with the idea of well, what happens if you give into that temptation of clicking the funny dialogue option where you're insulting them, and then it turns out that they actually just say, No, I'm not talking to you anymore. Oh well, that's on you. Um, yeah, and then with Rosewater, not only did I want to explore more of this world, but I also thought, okay, well, Westerns are usually about certain things, either. I mean, if you take a lot of the neo-Westerns, like the Tarantino-esque or the Cohen brothers, they're usually about like revenge or they're hyper-violent revenge stories, and I was like, I don't really want to do that. But I also, you know, the treasure hunt is usually like another another sort of popular thing. And I actually got inspiration from Uncharted 4. This is how long ago I was it was that I was playing, um, or that I that I got the the inspiration. Um, and I was like, yeah, you know, I want to that whole idea of the journey treasure hunt lends itself obviously very well to the adventure game because it's like the Indiana Jones style thing, right? So I wanted to do that, and then I also wanted to play with exploring more of the idea of the branching narrative, but as opposed to Lamplight City, where it was like, okay, well, if you say the wrong thing, you can't access this lead. It was more, well, what if you get to this point and you have a good relationship with this companion versus this companion? Fallout New Vegas was also uh an inspiration for that as far as like the companion quests and things like that. Um so yeah, uh very long answer to the question is but the short answer is yes, with every game I try and and do something a little different, whether it's uh a different uh story idea or a different um approach to how to handle a particular aspect of the genre or something. I don't think too much about mechanics necessarily because there isn't really a lot that you can do uh innovation-wise on the traditional point-and-click formula. Like there are some things you can do, but I always try to shy away from going a little too far away now because if you move too far away, then people start saying it's not an adventure game anymore. Um But yeah, and and I've I've fallen into the trap sometimes of just like putting in a mini game or something, which doesn't really work. Uh so I've I've tried to avoid not doing that. But yeah, I I I definitely do try and and keep things fresh and and do something different every time.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:23

I just I love hearing you go for that lineage of uh you know what what was coming to each game. And actually not to backtrack too much, but it was a question I did want to ask you about uh it we shard it was Shard Light was your first uh no golden wake. No, Golden Wake was my first one. Shard Light. Yeah, yeah. I guess I just just just finally finally wanted to ask what that did that feel like a sort of a big jump in terms of your sort of like dedication, like head down, it's like okay, I'm gonna like port because I guess that meant you were pausing on doing these slightly more sort of like smaller pieces, right? And you're gonna get your head down uh to do this bigger game. Oh yeah, yeah. What was the sort of impetus at at that point in what you were doing to say, yeah, I want to do this now. I'm gonna sort of take a bigger, a bigger leap. Because my guess is most people, rightly so, would just can just stay there and you just keep on iterating and experimenting, and that's like great, you're just putting out like fun work. But there was a decision process, I'm guessing, where you were like, Yeah, I'm actually gonna have a shot at something bigger here. I'm curious what that was for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:31

So it was in about 2008. I had just released the seventh Ben Jordan game, and I had started working on the eighth Ben Jordan game. And right around that time was when Dave Gilbert at Wadgedi had started publishing games. Um and he was uh they had they were just about to publish, or they had just they were yeah, they they had just started publishing Gemini Roo, or they had just published Gemini Roo, and they were gonna puzz uh published Puzzle Bots, um, which was the second game they published. And Dave basically said to me, you know, if you ever want to publish, if you ever want to go commercial, uh, I would love to publish a game of yours, which I'm fairly certain he said because he saw that I could finish projects and you know he knew that I was a safe investment in, you know, that's a hard one. Yeah, yeah. So so that was about the time where the idea seriously came to me because I had I had I had sort of thought well it would be nice if I could because at that point at that point there had already been a couple of of commercial AGS games. The very first one was called The Adventures of Fat Man, which I believe came out in like 2002, 2003-ish and I thought well that would be nice if I could make a game and like make money from it. That would be cool to do that as a job but I never seriously considered it until I saw that that this was happening that games were getting published and I thought well okay but then I was I was in a sort of a dilemma because I wanted to finish the Ben Jordan series. So I had this offer and I was like okay well I'll finish the Ben Jordan series in a couple of months right think again at that time thinking that it would just be a couple of months. It wasn't until 2012 um but in the meantime in the back of my mind I was like okay well I need to think of something that's commercial worthy right so I had this sort of stigma in my head about what exactly what exactly was the quality change I needed to make to be able to ask people for money and expect that they would take me seriously. So I was like well obviously I have to get better at art I have to get better at like everything basically because you know I'm making these games and it's you know whatever people download it if they don't like it whatever they downloaded it it doesn't matter. Um so yeah I had a couple of false starts and then I got the idea for a Golden Wake in about 2009 and then I started doing research here and there on my spare time and I remember pitching the idea to Dave in 2012 and he was like oh yeah that sounds cool. So at that point I was like okay I guess I guess I'm gonna make this game commercially so I was working on it and then yeah I that's that was about the point where I decided okay I'll this is it let's try it um I moved to New York in 2013 and I didn't think that I was going to become a game designer full time um I thought I would make this game in the in my spare time while working on other things um but then I just was like well you know what I've saved up enough money I have about a year's cushion let me just spend this year nose to the grindstone finishing a golden wake and get it out there and see what happens and I was very lucky in that you know it came out and it didn't it wasn't a great success by any means but I had already come up with the idea for Shard Light with Ben and we had sort of already started working on something. So because that project was already in the pipeline and because Ben had already also started working as the full-time artist with Wadget Dave was like oh I'll publish this one too so it was just kind of like it rolled in so then that sort of just kickstarted my my my ability to do it as a career so that was yeah and I've been very lucky that I've still been able to do it as a career even though the way things are going and the way the market is and the industry in general I'm like I hope I can still continue doing this as a career because I certainly learned from Rosewater that uh I I was very lucky to have the luxury of being able to take six years to make Rosewater based on you know my earnings from Lamplight City but I definitely cannot make another six year project if I want this to be a sustainable career any longer. So I yeah so basically the goal now is to just build the catalog and make m make shorter games uh you know I've gotten to the point where I've been doing this so long that I I this is actually the longest I've ever worked at one thing so I don't really have any any backup skills to do anything beyond like working at Starbucks again.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:50

So that that I can I can relate to that whole lot and so certainly when there's been quieter times I'm sort of like I d I have zero transferable skills for like the employment market. Like I'm very good at one specific thing and that works when it's working but if it's not working. Yeah but I'm I'm really glad I asked about that and I I was gonna say it you know I spoke with um the team the the John and to Joseph at um Incore Studios you know and and they've they've got a very very good model for you know they're they're they're putting good work out they've got a good back catalogue but it's sort of you know still generating sort of income for them and and just finding that that that that age old thing of the sustainability question like people want us to be able to keep on making good work but uh we have to find a way to sort of do it in a way where we can sort of well do it. But yeah I'm really glad I asked about about that. It's that it's it I was thinking oh that's like a literal dream come true story for a very specific type of person.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:46

Yeah yeah yeah yeah and I'm I'm in awe of of Inkle and John and Joseph and and just like they've reached the point where they can do like shadow drops and still still like not flop right like I would never dream of of doing a shadow drop because no one would pay any attention. And even something like like recently TR49 what they they announced it what like two months before release one month before release like I'd I'm like no I need to have at least a year to compile the witch would have a long long buildup. Well yeah very much an anticipation of that game well when I first released when I first announced it in 2019 I was expecting it to be out in 2021 so that was more an accident than anything else but you know I learned my lesson I'm not I'm not announcing my new project until I'm certain I know that my intended release year is achievable.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:42

So that's uh sort of a and actually something because I reached out to John and Joseph like that I didn't even so it was so shadowed I don't actually realize that it was coming out TR49. I cold emailed them the day before it came out and they're like yeah that's cool we've just we've got something on tomorrow but maybe we can set up and I was sort of impressed by the fact that they weren't totally like burnt out or like going crazy um and then it obviously kind of made sense when I met with them that they have a system you know that that works. Uh that they can sort of sustain themselves not just f financially but also clearly sort of uh mentally and emotionally as well because they're they're they're yeah but um this has been such a great conversation this has been this has sort of felt like I was looking forward to this because it was a a real opportunity deep dive deep deep dive into into adventure games and I knew there'd be some good takeaways from it. So yeah I really appreciate your time on this one.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:34

Yeah of course again thank you for her for your interest and for having me it's it's always nice to talk about this stuff.