I Asked The Witcher Voice Actor What His Career Has Cost Him | Doug Cockle

SPEAKER_02 0:00

My blood pressure was through the roof. I was I had skin conditions. I was just, you know, my body was falling apart. My wife and I went out for breakfast one day. She gave me an ultimatum. She said, look, you're gonna die if you don't do something. I think you've gotta choose. You've got to pick teaching or acting. Because uh I don't wanna I don't wanna lose you.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Hi there, my name is Stephen Lake, and welcome to the Examined Game. Today I'm talking with Doug Cockle, a voice actor for many of video games, and he's probably best known for his role of Gerald from uh The Witcher series. And this is again a bit like with the Josh Sawyer interview. This is gonna be a two-parter because we get really deep into some stuff around his career and the changes he had to make and the sort of ordeal that he went through in realizing he was gonna have to break away from his love of teaching, that in itself is such a fascinating story. And he's very open about the kind of roller coaster he went through in making these decisions. It was a really inspiring conversation to have because I think often when you look at someone, you know, like Doug, you might look at his IMDB page and see, well, he's just had this sort of string of really amazing games and what a beautiful life and career. And that that is true, but it's really interesting to hear about what's going on behind the scenes, about the decision making that one has to make to get by in life and make sure that you're looking after, you know, yourself and your health and your happiness so that you can go out and work on these incredible projects. And then part two, we sort of really get into the weeds of Gerald because I just had so many questions about the approach that he took to carrying this character that is so well loved. So stick around for both episodes. Thank you very much. Just one extra message the Patreon for the examine game is now live, so you can support the channel for free or as a paying member. I'd love it if you jumped in there as a way for me to stay in touch with you about different updates, different bonus content, and it helps me expand what I'm doing with this channel. Thanks for the support so far, and enjoy this episode. We've got a little something in common, and that I was a student at the Arts University Bournemouth, I believe, back when you were lecturing there. I can't remember what you're doing. Yeah, when were you there? I was there 2000 and no, I grew I graduated 2009.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

So Yeah, yeah, definitely. I was there from 2004 to 2017. I was the uh course leader for the BA Honors Acting Course.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Do you um do you miss that sometimes, just to sort of I miss certain things about it.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

I miss working with the students. Um I miss the I miss the good stuff, you know. I miss the good times, I miss the I miss directing shows. Um I miss the collegiality with the staff. Um I I miss all that stuff. You know, it most of it is interpersonal stuff, but um and and the feeling of being part of a community that's bigger than myself. I mean I have that in different ways now. But uh yeah, I I I miss that stuff. Yeah, I used to love directing shows. I um because it's it it's uh it's very similar to but different from directing a professional production. Um because it's a teaching environment. Um and I we we always had um the acting students performing um crew roles as well. So the actors would serve as SMs, ASMs, and DSMs, and um uh they would run the lighting board and the soundboard and they'd do props and you know stuff like that. They'd work with the costume students to um, you know, organize that. Um if we were working with film students, you know, they'd collaborate with the film students. Yeah, I remember that well. Yeah, it was all uh it was all a very, very creative environment. I don't miss the um the number crunching and some of the planning and the uh you know the the business side of it I don't miss very much. But uh or not at all.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

No, which which it sounds like that might have even started to it it it feels like that that's constantly compounding itself on getting more and more a part of the um you know I've I've gone back a handful of times to to the university to do some guest lecturing and it's it's it's kind of lovely because when you're a guest lecturer, you just slot in and you talk about documentaries and then you leave again. There's all these there's all the staff that are like you know, these brilliant, you know, talented uh creatives, but they're they they've got so much paperwork to do.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Yeah, well, and they're you know, I because I was there myself, quite often their heads are you know, the I on the acting course at least, and I knew, you know, a lot of the people on the film course as well, uh and costume, you know, they're all professionals, they're all people who do what they teach, um especially at AUB. But um you know that because they're in an academic environment, their heads are in that space. And so there's a there's a a different focus. So you're right, it is nice to go in as a guest lecturer and just be able to talk about what you do and what you know because of that. There's a beauty in that, you know. It is a bit like being the the uncle who hands out sweets to the kids and then gives them back to the parents.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

That's like exactly what it feels like. Um Yeah, so you must have probably I think it was David Muns was the head of film when I was there. Yeah, I really liked working with David. He was great. David was great. And again, so it was interesting being on the film production side because yeah, we would then like receive the you know the acting students and then they would, you know, take uh occasionally, you know, like not so good directing from the uh the ambitious uh film production. Um I'm sure it went the other way as well.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

You know, sometimes because there are actors you know who are learning their craft and how to work with directors. I'm sure there were many occasions where the actors got very good direction and didn't quite know what to do with it because they were still trying to work out, you know, how to do that. It's all part of the learning process.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

And so then I'm actually curious, you know, so you're um just to just briefly sort of go over the timeline because obviously you're working as an actor and then you're teaching, and then at some point you I don't know if you make the decision or the decisions made for you, but you then step out of that um to you know just be going sort of full-time with what what you're doing now, right? I just would like to just get the chronology of that and how those two things of being a working actor and teaching were sort of um running side by side for that period of time.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Yeah, well, I I I always knew I wanted to teach at university level. I I just really liked the idea of it. I so enjoyed working with my my teachers at university, both in undergrad and grad school. And I I just liked the atmosphere. And so I I really wanted to be part of that. Um so w when I had small children, um I mean that you know, I think a lot of people watching this will recognize the need to uh to have a certain degree of security in their life. Um uh I I did an MFA in acting for two reasons. One, partly because I I really wanted to learn more about my craft. I wanted to dedicate some time. Uh because in undergrad, you know, especially in the U.S., you're focused on a liberal arts degree and you're doing all kinds of things and it's great, and I loved it. Um but I really wanted the opportunity to have more of a conservatoire kind of experience. So I did that partly with the idea that I wanted to study my craft in more depth, and and also because I knew that I wanted to teach in the future at some point. And um, you know, an MFA in acting in the States, uh more so than over here, but here as well, uh, is kind of the qualification for doing that. So, anyways, when I had small children, I um uh I went through this series of film roles uh that I was auditioning for, and I I I kept getting down to like, you know, the the last pencil and then not getting the job. And, you know, once it was because I wasn't yet a UK citizen and they needed UK citizens for the tax breaks that it that it uh that afforded the production and all those kinds of things. They make the productions happen. Yeah. So there were things like that, and um uh I was making a living, but it wasn't enough to support a family of four, and my wife really wanted to be a stay-at-home mom while the kids were young, and I totally supported that. So there came a point where I was just like, well, it's it's you know, I had done some teaching. I dipped my foot in it in grad school, but also professionally over here, just doing guest lecturing and things like that. And I just came to a point where I was like, you know what, we need a secure income. Um, something I've always wanted to do, so I started applying all over the world. I applied to a job in Okinawa. Um and I got the job at i what was then Arts Institute Bournemouth. And uh for the first year I was the movement and acting lecturer alongside the the then course leader who started the course. And after a year he left and then I became the course leader. So during all that time, I was still auditioning, I was doing stuff, and um it was hard. It was hard. Uh once I became the course leader, it was a little bit easier because I could schedule my teaching in such a way that I I knew I had blocks of time when I would be available to do things. Um and I was I was still a manager, so I I still I rem I was doing a lot of voice work, including all of the Witcher franchise uh during my time at AUB. And uh I remember I'd, you know, I'd I'd go up to London for for recording and I'd be working on the train and then I'd get there, and on my breaks, I'd always be I'd be checking my emails and responding to things, and then on, you know, working on the way home on the train again, and then working weekends, and uh, you know, it was it was tough. But it was important. It was important for my soul as much as anything else. Um I love what I do, and I always felt it was really, really important as much as I could to still be doing what I, you know preach uh teach what what is it, preach what you teach? Or or uh something like that. Anyways, I wanted to make sure that I still had my foot in the professional realm uh as strongly as I could. Um so I did that for 13 years. And um it finally came to a head. I was uh I was incredibly stressed, my health was suffering. Um I was doing two things at once, but more importantly, the nature of the teaching job had changed. Uh the students had changed, their their needs were different, and I was finding that I was struggling to uh to be able to fully meet those needs. Could you sort of explain what those were, just out of curiosity? I think we've all seen over the past fifteen, twenty years, you know, the the um the change in things like uh n, you know, um frequency of diagnoses of anxiety and depression. And that's largely due to uh uh you know the medical establishment being better able to actually diagnose properly. Um and so things like that, um, the changes in the higher education environment, it became much more commercialized. Um so students came with expectations that um were often more difficult to manage. Um they expected more uh for less. And I'm not putting students down at all. This is not a dig at them at all. It's just uh an observation of the the changes that were happening. And so that combined with the fact that uh, especially after Witcher 3 came out, I was getting a lot of attention in the acting world, and and it just became apparent to me. I my wife and I went out to breakfast one day when higher education, it became a number-crunching thing. Um, you know, where it was all about student satisfaction and student numbers, and um, you know, it was all about statistics, um, or it's much more about statistics, and I just found that infuriating and and really frustrating. Um and I'd go into meetings and I was being, you know, uh grilled about numbers that I had very little control over. And I it was very, very it was it was soul destroying as opposed to soul building. And my wife and I went out for breakfast one day and we were chatting, and my I I was literally my blood pressure was through the roof, I was I had skin conditions, I was just you know, my body was falling apart. And it was partly my fault because I was doing too much. But it was also the stress uh at the teaching job, and she gave me an ultimatum. She said, Look, you're gonna die if you don't do something. I'd tried exercising, I'd, you know, I I'd quit smoking fairly early on, actually, in like 2007. Um But yeah, she said, look, you've gotta I think you've gotta choose. You've gotta pick teaching or acting. It's it's come to that point. You can't you can't do both. You've got to focus on one. And hopefully that'll that'll help you get your health back. Because uh I don't wanna I don't wanna lose you. So um yeah, over over the course of about four or five months, we weighed up the pros and cons and looked at all the the possibilities and everything, and uh I decided to resign from my job as a teacher and go back to full-time acting. Um it was at a point where the potential for my acting career to to support us, but also my wife had gone back to work. She was working um, I can't remember at that point if it was part-time or full-time as a virtual assistant. Um basically being a PA to small businesses and stuff like that. And so she was bringing in some money as well. The kids were older, they were more self-sufficient, um, you know, things had changed. So uh I decided to go back to full-time acting. Um and I did that for a couple of years, and then I actually went back to teaching. I went I I I because uh I I like I said, I missed the students and interacting with the students and staff and the creative environment that uh that teaching acting in a university does provide. I went back to that and that was just before the pandemic hit. And I taught on campus um for I think it was two months. I started in January. January 6th, I think it was, 2000. Oh right, yes, I really yeah, and then the pandemic hit, and then we were teaching from home, online, and everything, and that was horrible for everybody. And we we did our best, and the students were, you know, really good about it. Um but I was still on probation, and we got to the end of my six-month probation, and uh they were like, you know, we gotta cut costs, and um you're still on probation, and see ya. So it was kind of like that, right in the middle of the pandemic. But it was actually uh a blessing in disguise. It um uh it kind of forced me to go back, and and it wasn't a great experience either. I had a really, really bad experience at that second university. Um really bad. Uh and I walked out going, never again. I'm never, ever teaching at a university again. Uh not because of the students, because of um because of the the politics and the the number crunching and the the just the way that higher education had gone. I just didn't suit me at all anymore. So it was kind of it was a good thing in the end. It was hard because I was looking at trying to maintain an acting career at a time when nothing was happening, or so I thought. But I was very fortunate. I ended up being very busy during the p pandemic with indie projects and stuff, so it worked out. And I haven't looked back. I've done a few guest lectures at AUB and elsewhere. Um but uh yeah, actually, during the pandemic, um after I was let go from that job, I was like, well, I gotta do something different here. And uh talked to my wife about it. And and I was like, you know, I've always wanted to do an MBA, Masters of Business Administration, because it just sounded cool. And ironically, it's it's number crunching as well. But it's also one of my favorite units in the in the year-long master's program was all about leadership style. And I just found that fascinating. I loved it. Um, just about different ways of leading and different styles of leading and you know, how to define those and w what they mean and and how that potentially impacts an organization and you know stuff like organizational structure. I found that really interesting and fascinating. And what it ended up being was kind of a I did learn new stuff, but it ended up being a consolidation of everything that I had learned over 13 and a half years of working in higher education in the senior management position. Um because at AUB I wasn't just a course leader, I was a principal lecturer, and I ended up uh, to a certain extent, managing other course leaders. Um I wrote or assisted in writing uh other courses, starting them up. Um, I was looking at uh policies and procedures across the university. I was very involved in the overall running of the university at a at a management level. And um so it was really interesting to do the MBA and kind of go, oh, I I did that. I did I did it naturally. I I didn't know I was doing that, but I did that. Oh, I didn't even think about that one. That was that's a cool idea. If I ever find myself in a position like that again, I might put that into practice. So it was it was fascinating. Um that was my timeline. I I I had quite a ride there for a while. It was interesting, though, coming out of it. I I it's I'm a different person now. I mean, I'm the same person, obviously, but I'm uh I'm a very different person. My blood pressure is right down. Um I'm a lot healthier. I'm able to exercise more. Um it's uh it's coming out of something like that, I've described it before as like a like a diver coming up from the depths. And you have to come up kind of slowly or you get the bends, you know, and that's not good. So there was a there was probably a five-year period of time after I left AUB, uh during which I was really just trying to find myself again. Um because teaching, you know, it it's if you do it right, you give a lot of yourself to it. Um you give over a lot of yourself to it. Uh so there was a lot of kind of going, what do I want? What do I need? What what is what is it how do I want to move forward? Um and that was a fascinating process to go through. I say fascinating, it was really hard. It was it was at times really uh really difficult. And and not just for me, for my wife uh and for my kids. Because I was dealing with a lot of a lot of stuff. Um and so were they. You know, they were going through changes as well. My kids were, you know, finishing various stages of school, my wife was moving back into Work world. You know, the acting industry was changing because of COVID. You know, there were a lot of things happening at the time. Looking back, it was fascinating. At the time, it was it it was fighting through uh some really big changes.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Thanks for for sharing that. It's so interesting. I mean, not not nothing about that surprises me, because knowing like I think, you know, from an outside perspective, anyone who works in, you know, whether it be you know uh film or video games or whatever, like if if you're interested in in in a person, usually the the only the only breakdown of a timeline you're gonna get is like from their IMDB page, right? Yeah, and and it's like a horrifically oversimplification of like what's going on for someone because you know it's like, oh, which are three? This game, this game, this game. And and it's it's um I just feel like you just so perfectly described that that ebb and flow is almost too gentle a word, but everything that's going on underneath the surface that leads us, I don't know, eventually to the place that we're destined to be or supposed to be.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Yeah, it's kind of the it's it's the weird blessing and curse of the modern day, you know, with social media and email and IMDb and things like that. You know, what you see on the surface is not necessarily what's going on. It's it's like the you know, the proverbial I had this whole debate with my wife recently. Um I was watching celebrity catchphrase uh with her uh while we were eating dinner, and uh there was this woman on there who, you know, to me came across as very posh. And uh she said, Oh, I'm very nervous. She she was doing the super catchphrase at the end. And he said, Oh, you you know, you you seem so calm and collected. She said, Oh no, I'm really nervous. My feet are drumming away like the per like like the swan, you know, the so calm and graceful on on the top of the water and and uh underneath the feet are going like crazy. And I said, the swan. She's so posh. She said, swan, it's duck, isn't it? Because I've always said it's the duck. And uh and my wife was like, No, it's the swan. I said, no, it's the duck. It's always been the duck. And she's like, no, it's always been the swan. We had this whole debate about whether it was a duck or something.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Maybe it depends where one's educated.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Yeah. So yeah, it is like that. You know, I have a lot I know a lot of actors, particularly in the game industry, um, who post things on Instagram and and other places. And you know, and and it's their it's their successes. And you know and I do it too. But you know, occasionally I have conversations with them and you know, and they've had a really rough time. They've had medical issues or they've had you know relationship issues, interpersonal issues, or just, you know, have gone through terrible depression or anxiety or whatever and and are still going through it. You know, and on the surface everything looks great. Uh but behind the scenes, everybody's got their struggle.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

I think um yeah, and it's so again, it's I think it's this what the and it's sort of part of what I wanted to get into with with having this podcast is actually like just getting a little bit more and what's what I think is interesting anytime I have these conversations, um is the set aside that stuff, but often when we we talk about like whatever the the the the spine of one's success is or the backbone of it or what leads to it, that answer is often full of um banality and quite simple um elements, which is is uh often what I'm hearing is consistency, you know, um in in just keeping on showing up, chopping wood, carrying water day in, day out, and having a little bit of a kind of blinkers-on tunnel vision focus on what on what one's doing, which again it isn't cannot be communicated through through an IMDB page because within five seconds you can you can scan through two decades of someone's entire work history.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Um And that's not even the entire work history on IMDb. Yeah, exactly. Because like on IMDb, they you know they they only put up things that can be absolutely verified. And that means that the producers or directors or whoever have to have verified that that production actually happened and existed. And not all of them do. So if you go and look at my IMDB, anybody's IMDB page, there will be things, there will be missing things on there, and you don't even know it. It's interesting that you said, you know, people, you know, they they they get their blinders on and, you know, they're they're focused on what they're doing. And actually I don't think that's the right way to go about it. At least when you said it, it it struck me because I think that I I don't do exactly that. Um I think it's better to not have the blinders on to know what you're going for and to go for that, but also to have your peripheral vision available to you so you can see the opportunities that you might not otherwise recognize when they present themselves. I think that's really important in life. So I was teaching my sa my oldest son how to drive, this is you know, a few years ago. But I noticed that he was focusing on the road directly in front of him. And and I said to him, kiddo, don't don't just look at what's directly in front of the car. Look at what's coming down the road. You know, look at what's on this on the pavement, on the side, on the other side of those parked cars. You know, be aware of everything, not just what's in the road in front of you, but everything that's coming. Um so that you can respond to it. Uh and I think that's a really good metaphor for life. You know, you if you go through if you go through life with your blinders on, you miss stuff. If you take the blinders away, but k you know, keep your focus on what you're going for, but keep your attention wide enough that you can see, you know, not only the opportunities, but the pitfalls as well. You know, you can see where the industry is changing, you can see where opportunities are missed, so you can hopefully not miss the next one. You can see where personal relationships need development, you can s you know, it's it it's easy to to focus in um and miss stuff.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

No, you're so you're so right. I think the driving analogy is a much, much better one. And that's been my experience as well. I mean, again, to to come back to like this work I'm doing now. You know, I spent since gr literally since graduation, you know, uh uh at the uh arts university in Bournemouth in the in the documentary industry, and such a kind of um dead set focus on what what where firstly where I think I should be, secondly, where I think the industry should be, and you know, as I'm sure you're aware of, like neither of those things are ever where you want them to be, right? Or where you think they should be. And and I was just getting so frustrated, and it was having such you know, such a detrimental effect on me. And again, I was talking with my my wife, you know, saying, like, I literally cannot picture doing anything else because it's always been such a focus, and of course, as we know, you never really get to whatever destination you you think you're aiming for, but you know, then this like you know, lifelong love of video games, and then this kind of very strange peripheral thing coming in of like, well, maybe I'll just start. Well, I'm just literally waiting for for projects to come off because they're taking so long. I'm gonna email the people that have been part of my favorite video games they ever made, and then all of a sudden, I'm almost this has become, you know, just like this beautiful kind of just not even distraction because it's just what I want to be spending my days doing. But yeah, I never could have imagined it even existing like a month prior to it big beginning, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Yeah, well, I I think also that it's great to have goals, and you should. You should absolutely have goals and things you want to do and things you want to change, and you know, um I there are proverbs out there. I'm I love proverbs and you know, uh wisdomisms or whatever they are. But it it's they're often so true, and I I've I am a firm believer in the idea that it's have the goal, but the goal is not the end point and it's not the purpose. The goal is a target to aim for. And that target might change. What's really important is the journey, the journey that you're on, and you know, making those choices and learning from them, making mistakes and and celebrating the successes, and you know, along the way going, woo-hoo. And uh still going for whatever your goals are, but man, enjoy the journey. Because really, you may never reach that goal, and once you get there, you may not be happy with it. You know, there may be something else, another goal that you're gonna like, okay, well that's great, now what? You know, and and so I I kind of believe in I said recently in in something I'm involved in, I said, you know, don't try to be good, try to be better. Um and it's true, you know, you try to be good, but enjoy being better. Every little win is a success, and you should celebrate those and enjoy that process. Otherwise, why the hell are you doing it?

SPEAKER_00 32:23

Well, you can again, and uh I'm sure we've all gone through that and we've talked about it, that there's been periods it's like, I think I'm gonna try and go through this process, and and clearly I'm not gonna enjoy it, and you know, you see how far that gets you, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

Yeah, my brother-in-law has a phrase that I really like, and sometimes he says, sometimes you have to swallow the frog. You know, you sometimes you just there are things in life you don't want to do, and you just have to do them sometimes. And and you know, the best you can do is to try to enjoy that process as best you can. You may not, you may never enjoy whatever it is, but give it a go, get through it, swallow the frog, and then move on to the cake.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

A bit of frog and a bit of cake. Yeah. Basically, life. I'm curious, and I think I sort of probably know that what the answer is gonna be, but I'd love to hear you elaborate on it, you know, because you you've spoken a bit about the sort of support network you've had around you, obviously your wife and your kids. And I'm I'm interested in who the roles that the people in your life have played in helping you, you know, and uh my experience of say say with marriage is it's like we're we're each other's champions, right? It's not all just about one person, but I just want to hear about it from the perspective of of you know how those people in your life have basically helped, you know, keep you safe and sane throughout throughout you know what you talked about, those sort of turbulent years. And and the other thing that I guess what I'm getting to and what I heard in the conversation that you had with your wife, and this has been my experience, is it's like we can't see the back of our own head, right? That's why it's so important to have people around us that can point out to us what's necessarily going on that we ourselves can't see, and thus then we're in a better position to, you know, make better, better decisions, not just for us, but for them as well.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's what a partnership is. Um and it's not always easy, you know, that it anything interpersonal is a negotiation always. Um and seeing the back of someone's head, you know, or having the back of your head seen isn't always uh a pleasant process. Um But the the thing the key there is that i if you if you trust someone and they tell you something, then you have to trust that you know what they're telling you is coming from a place of love and and goodwill uh and concern uh you know or celebration. Um sometimes we don't even see our own successes. Uh so having those people around you who can help you to do that is really important. Community is such an important thing. Um when I first left the AUB, it's one of the things that I most missed, and I didn't realize how much I relied on it until I didn't have it. Um and it was uh it was after the second teaching job. I can't remember what year it was, but BAFTA started doing this um Games Social on the first Friday of every month. And any games BAFTA members uh who wanted to would, you know, would sign up and show up for a social networking event at BAFTA in London. And I went to the first one just to check it out, and I met so many wonderful people who I knew, maybe I'd met them in passing before, or, you know, uh at an audition, or maybe I knew their name, but I'd never met them face to face. And I met all these wonderful people, and very quickly that became my community. And I made it a mission, you know. My wife I I came home after one and and I said to my wife, it's just so wonderful to meet all these people and talk about stuff and just have a good laugh. And you know, it was really freeing and wonderful, and from that I've made some really truly excellent friends and and work colleagues as well. And uh it's uh it's a beautiful it's a beautiful thing to have a community. So, yeah, for anybody out there watching this who, you know, feels like they don't have that support, go find a community. You have to go find it. It's not gonna come to you. You have to put yourself out there and go find people who who you can have a good laugh with and who are pursuing similar goals and who you can talk with about your frustrations and your and celebrate your successes as well. It's really important.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

It's um it's actually something I talk with students a bit about when and I remember, you know, it's like that when they hear the dreaded word networking, you know, and um project something onto it because I don't think and I always make sure to explain to them that I'm naturally an introvert, but but but that I can't get by on my own. And I can't do the things I want to do or work with the people I want to work with if no one knows that I even exist, and it's that's that to me is a perfect example of the swallow the the frog mentality. Some some find it easier than others, but um if if going out and connecting is is uh a tougher thing for you, then it's one of these things we have to, and there's so many different ways of doing it now, but we we we I I've had to find some way to circumvent that so that I can actually become a part of, and then as you were just saying, like feeling a part of in it in any way, be it a family or or colleagues or peers or within a an educational um institution, it's um nothing I've ever done and nothing I'll ever do will will come about without collaboration and peer support. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

Even if it's not a working thing, you know, there's um uh there's great value, even if you don't feel like you have a work community. Um go do a martial art and get to know the people in the class. Go take a carpentry class or a creative writing class and get to know the people there. Uh join a charitable foundation that does things in the community. You know, anything that gets you out meeting people so that you can find like-minded people and and um uh you know, be and and and build some kind of community, whatever kind of community. Uh n going back to networking, oh man, Stephen, it my my son said something once and I was just like Of course. He was he was talking about networking and how difficult he was finding it. And I think he said one of his professors at university said this to him. Um but he said it to me and I was like, wow. He said, I've decided that networking isn't a bad thing. It doesn't have to be a bad thing, and uh it's I now call it friendworking. It's really just going out there and meeting people, and you know, you'll meet people you don't particularly want to spend more time with, and they're the frogs. But you'll also meet people if you put yourself out there who you do want to spend time with and you do want to, you know, build a relationship of whatever kind with. Uh so it's friendworking. It's it's going out there, putting yourself out there in a way where you can meet people who you want to hang out with.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

I love that phrase. It it sort of uh I think what needs to happen is someone needs to make like a kind of children's uh children's story, picture book story, like one of those big kind of cardboardy ones all about friend working, and they can hand out to to year one students. Yeah. It can be like about an elephant that has to go and like mingle with the other jungle, jungle creatures. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Absolutely. There probably are books that basically do that, but but hide it very well.