I Asked the Brother and Sister Behind Outer Wilds How It All Began

SPEAKER_04 0:00

We had a lot of childhood IP. It was my attempt at making a video game without any without a computer, essentially, because I'm pretty sure that was inspired by like Super Mario Land on the Game Boy, which is like one of the first games that we ever had, and and then later made a version out of DuPlow's where Kelsey would, yeah, use a a fake joystick and I would like move the character around.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

I would have to say, like, boing to jump and the arguments over if I jumped in time. There are places you can go with a sibling that you can't go with a coworker. I think it really felt that way still for Outer Wilds, because I was answering to you as a creative director, and I was used to that. When you make something where you're just really excited to show people, I think that feeling is kind of the same. Check this out. I made a thing. What do you think?

SPEAKER_05 0:44

Hi there, my name is Team Lake, and welcome to the Examine Game. Today I am talking with Alex Beecham, the creative director of Outer Worlds, and Kelsey Beecham, his sister, the writer for Outer Worlds. So I brought these two siblings together to have a very in-depth conversation. We talk a lot about play in general and about the childhood that they had together in making crazy wacky video games and movies and books and comics. And it's just such a joyful, fun conversation to hear about all of the work that we're unconsciously doing as kids around play and joy and making things and wanting to like put things in front of other people, which eventually led to them creating this beautiful, beautiful experience of outer worlds. I spoke with Kelsey and Alex individually, more specifically around outer wilds, and I thought it would be really fun to get them together to just hear brother and sister talking amongst each other. And as you can imagine, they have a very natural uh pattern between themselves, and it was a slightly surreal experience for me uh to get to be in conversation with these two whose game um I absolutely adore. This is such a beautiful conversation. I loved hearing from them both. I would love it if you would support me on my Patreon, either for free, or you can become a paying member for bonus content and episodes in advance as they come together. Enjoy this episode, thank you very much. Great, uh Kelsey, Alex, thank you so much for joining me today. I've gotten to speak with you both individually, and now you're here uh as a pair, which is brilliant. I'm so excited about this conversation. Um I did ask you before, you know, I'm interested in what people have played or what they are playing, and I don't know, you know, before you were telling me about what your present tense games were, but I'd love to get from both of you like what your historical, like most played games are in the bag, like going through through childhood right up to present tense. Usually people have a pretty clear idea of what their number one, two, and three are.

SPEAKER_04 2:41

You want to go or you want me to go?

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Wind Waker's one of them for sure. I played Wind Waker so many times.

SPEAKER_04 2:53

I I have a hunch I can actually look up my my uh my hours on um it's not gonna cover my hours.

SPEAKER_02 3:02

That's my picture of Dorian Gray. I will crumble to dust if I find out how much time I've spent playing video games.

SPEAKER_04 3:08

I have a hunch that one of my top three is probably one I meant. I I can't remember which ones I mentioned I was currently playing last time um we talked. But um uh even though I only played it for the first time last year, I think UFO 50 is my top played Steam game. I've got over 300 hours in that.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

I'd say growing up, probably my top three were Wind Waker, Animal Crossing, and maybe like Yoshi's Island.

SPEAKER_05 3:43

That's a good that's a good uh blend of new and old right there. Um UFO 50 is comes up a lot. It that seems to be like the game devs game. Like I spoke with Bennett Foddy from getting over it, and that was up there. Oh cool. Uh yeah. Um, Isaac, same.

SPEAKER_04 4:06

If yeah, it's like if it gets your hook it it's hooks into you, um you're screwed. You're screwed. Um I started out bouncing around and and there's this thing, you go the game when you finish it, and then there's always this extra condition to cherry the cartridge where it like turns red. You have all these 50 games, and you know, I started out being like, I'm there's like I'm gonna cherry some of these, sure, but like there's no way. That'd be crazy. Yeah, I'm gonna cherry all of them. It's gonna, it's I'm almost there. I'm almost there. I've got like uh two to go or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Uh this explains why we haven't hung out in a while.

SPEAKER_04 4:37

Um No, I mean I've done it over a long period of time, but uh I do I do have the brain disease.

SPEAKER_05 4:43

Um Yeah, three out of 300 hours is sizable.

SPEAKER_04 4:47

Um That's a lot for me, by the way. My my next highest is like several hundred below that. It's that's not normal.

SPEAKER_05 4:53

Uh that's usually is. That that my experience has been the gap. It it it it sort of um it dropped there's a pretty big drop. Like for me, Factorio like towers above everything else. Uh what is what is number two for you?

SPEAKER_04 5:07

The next one's probably Smash, actually.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Oh, I didn't think of that.

SPEAKER_04 5:10

Are we allowed to compress all of the Smash Brothers games into one game because like I mean we played the most of melee probably. I I don't know. Cot college was brawl, a lot of brawl.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

And then Ultimate was a perfectly designed drinking game that had to have been called Super Smashed Brothers, because if it wasn't, I'll ride. I think it was Super Smash Brothers. It was designed to kind of punish you if you did really well. And then it was you took more drinks if you were in first place than if you were in last, and then you got to give out drinks based on how many KOs you got. So it kind of eventually was self-sorting into getting everyone kind of on the same playing field.

SPEAKER_04 5:55

I don't think I ever played that with you guys.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

Really? Oh, we were proud of it.

SPEAKER_04 5:59

See, I like that better as an equalizer than items, frankly.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Yeah, it was a good equalizer because you know, if somebody was doing really well but you were getting KOs, you could award drinks to them and keep everyone involved.

SPEAKER_05 6:12

I love the that that's my kind of the flaw with most drinking games is they're not bad they're not well-balanced games. You know, it's not like Stardew Valley where everything's just perfectly sort of like balanced and ticking along. But I love the idea of you you making an efficient, well-balanced drinking game.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

It wasn't even with a bunch of game developers, it was like me and my partner, and then some other folks that just really enjoyed video games and and drinking games. So yeah, it was college.

SPEAKER_05 6:42

Did you have to like test it? Did you like beta test it to kind of iron out the wrinkles?

SPEAKER_02 6:48

It wasn't hard to get people to want to play it just to begin with, because it was drinking, so it was just like, yeah, we'll just go from here and see what, you know, see what happens. We used to play Super Smash Bros. Melee a lot, Alex and I growing up, and we used to play a lot of one-on-one, and it got very intense. But we had a bowl of glass marbles in the the kitchen cupboard that my mom kept for like putting she it was like a vase, and she would like put like fake flowers in there, and that's what the marbles were. But we called it playing for all the marbles.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

And uh where there was never like you didn't bet individual amounts of marble. It was never like, oh, I bet you three marbles, I'll win. It's just so at any one point, one of us had all of the marbles, and the other had none of the marbles, and that is that was the the format for the game. So if it was a serious match, we would play for all the marbles.

SPEAKER_04 7:41

I only like I barely remember. I remember the phrase. I don't remember. I don't remember the way that's playing. I guess we played one-on-one because there was no one else to play with half the time.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

Yeah, well, because Aaron was four years younger and not as good at video games at the time.

SPEAKER_05 7:54

We played with like Rita David Championship. Um I'm curious if you feel like the games that you played of your youth seem reflective of the sort of video games you gravitated towards making. Or if not at all, you know.

SPEAKER_04 8:19

Um I mean for me definitely, in the sense that like, I mean, uh Zelda, big Zelda Head, um, and you know, at least Outer Wilds, which let's be real, is the only real like big game I've you know, made them worked on Kelsey's worked on more games than I have that have shipped, I think. Um and uh but yeah, yeah, that there's a lot of DNA in there, right? But yeah, explor I like explory stuff. Um I think my ideal games actually would be considerably uh more like skill difficulty, like um but I would love a game that is like more difficult than Outer Wilds, both um in terms of like raw like the skill-based stuff and also just like puzzle difficulty and stuff would be my personal ideal and the kind of stuff I gravitate towards. So maybe I make things that are similar to the things I like to play, but I'm aware that like my particular what I particularly enjoy is way too small of a piece of the Venn diagram.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

I think I tend to make games for less hyper-specific audiences, not necessarily intentionally, just I I'm a much more broader game player, like different types than I am maker. I don't know that I've found my exact niche yet. I really like making exploration adventure action games. But there's no the only thing I know is I don't I don't I don't always love making cozy games. It has to be the right cozy game. And I like playing cozy games just fine. So it's not that. It's just like sometimes the lack of conflict or drama, you're just like, oh, I need four turnips, and you're just kind of like, yeah, how do you write that in a way that's gripping and epic, you know?

SPEAKER_05 9:58

I'm sort of interested in what you know, we spoke about this. I mean it's what kicked up that this my interest in having a conversation, sort of broadly speaking about play, and I was thinking about you know, you know, it was you talked about a game, I think, of that you made, was it SuperKid? Is that what you called it? But the one that was.

SPEAKER_04 10:16

Oh Jesus, did I bring that up last time? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't keep it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We had uh well Kel, I think Kelsey, didn't you invent Superkid as like the character first?

SPEAKER_01 10:25

SuperKid was you want to give context?

SPEAKER_05 10:27

Because this we're we're now talking about the the the first game made by the potential first game made by the Owl World.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

It's we had a bunch of uh duplos, those big Lego blocks.

SPEAKER_04 10:39

First was but but that was Superkid too.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

No, it was. But but Superkid came from it was a figurine of uh like a non-clearly gendered person with a helmet, and I went super kid because I was like, well, there's already Superman and I'm a kid, so so that was my very clever little invention.

SPEAKER_04 11:01

Um that kind of tracks actually, because yeah, I I do like I I'd forgotten that the duplo characters came before Yeah, that's what inspired it. And then that makes sense why then there's a yeah. So then so then essentially, yeah, Super Kid 1 was a game that I a game, a video game, uh it that we played IRL. Um and I pretty sure it was just like I would like bounce down the hallway in like certain patterns and Kelsey had to dodge past stuff like that, yeah. Because I I'm pretty sure that was inspired by like Super Mario Land on the Game Boy, which was like one of the first games that we ever had, and one of the first game systems we ever had, and then later made a version out of duplos where Kelsey would, yeah, use a fake joystick and I would like move the character around.

SPEAKER_02 11:44

And I would have to say like boing to jump, and then we get into arguments over if I jumped in time, which you don't have to do in a game where it's like emulating physics and everything, and it's just gonna do that for you. There's no arguing with the game, like, no, no, I jumped.

unknown 11:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:58

Would you count that as a co-op game, or was it more like uh one person and then it like it was it was intended to be it was my attempt at making a video game without any without a computer, essentially, right? With like there's like level design and it was all like very much um I think I I I mean maybe I mentioned I don't know if I brought this up or not, but no, I saw a couple of years ago I started being like, I wonder if I can because I have all I recorded all the levels on grid paper as a child. And so a few years ago.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Alex was an incredibly meticulous child.

SPEAKER_04 12:30

Yeah, that yeah, the the grid stuff is is a bit is a is a lot.

SPEAKER_05 12:34

It's on words that usually go together, meticulous and and child, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

He made one time, oh my god, he made um he made uh this Starcats game because we had an IP called Starcats.

SPEAKER_04 12:46

And that was just the we did we had a lot of childhood IPs in the case. We did.

SPEAKER_05 12:53

Who currently owns that? Have you been in have you retained the IP or you haven't lost it in some merger or something?

SPEAKER_04 12:59

You know, the SuperKid and StarCat IPs are still out like you know, call us.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

And uh the he he took the StarCats one and he made it this big like battleship and you could like intercounter things in space and then it would zoom in. Oh, that was a board game systems. It was a board game, but it was played on graph paper. It was awful and different types of graph paper. And um at the time I was undiagnosed with ADHD.

SPEAKER_03 13:25

I mean, the best little sister ever.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

No, but I'm the I am the best little sister ever that I played through your hyper version where I was just like that game was that game was awful. Um SuperKid wasn't though. SuperKid was great.

SPEAKER_04 13:40

No, Super Kidd. Oh yeah, and then because I have the grid paper a few years ago, I was like, I wonder if I can like remake this in Unity.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

Um and uh just just for for yeah, to uh He made it an entire actual video game for my birthday, which was very sweet.

SPEAKER_04 13:54

Yeah, the motivation was for Kelsey's birthday, and um but but it was possible to because that was the original intent, was right. I was like originally just sort of like it but it a logic of it, it's like you get items and it's it's not like um freeform. It's very much like no, you do this and this, and it's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Yeah, you do you do things in order.

SPEAKER_04 14:14

It wasn't good, but it I enjoyed playing it.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:18

No, it's it was fun to go back to it and and try to yeah, recreate it and be like, oh man.

SPEAKER_05 14:24

Um I'm I'm sort of curious what you felt about um like I mean, like you said, you just said it wasn't good or like it was a game that you made up as a kid that like existed. I mean we were kids, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:36

I say it's not good, but it is fun to go back and see the like you know, every so often you're like, oh, that was a cool idea. And then immediately you're like, well, this doesn't make any goddamn sense. Um you're like, huh. Like try the hardest part about translating it from the grid paper into Unity, um, besides the fact that sometimes I'm looking at it and I'm like, I think I did I just write this down, you know, trying to interpret it's like an act of a historical reenactment, uh just like more navel gazily than normal. Um and but but you're faced with these decisions where like when you want to make it a real video game, you're like, oh, this is gonna softlock the player real hard. Um how do I handle that without like betraying the uh, you know, the original intent? Um and and also to Kelsey's point, the whole like originally, you know, it was this negotiation of did you jump correctly? And when you make it a video game, it's like, you know, math is it's too precise. Um maybe I should make oh my god, Kelsey, maybe I should add a mode to the Unity version where I am just driving the it's two player and one person like yeah, there's like I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

You you like there's a percent chance that I'll I'll not jump it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:45

Um I love that you're keeping up with the updates of that game. That's that's that's wonderful. I'm sure it's due an update. Um it's funny, the reason and I reached out was like I was it was my 40th, and I got a switch too because I'm also turning 12 at the same time, um, and a Minecraft cake. But I I was playing Donkey Kong Country on it with my family, and my niece Izzy couldn't play it, it was too difficult for her. And then so my sister and Izzy basically set up a exactly what you were just talking about there with Super Kid, like with pieces of paper on the floor and the bananas and coins, and my sister was uh controlling Izzy's, you know, by saying jump, and I was like, oh my god, this is literally exactly what and just to be clear, they don't watch the podcast, like they're not but it was one of those interesting things, right? You know, they talk about there's like monkeys on this side of the planet and this side of the planet, and they both work out how to use the same tools in the same way. Um, it was just interesting seeing the exact same point of creativity drawn out of a video game but put into reality that I heard you talk about, and then I see it coming out. Um my sister as well.

SPEAKER_04 16:59

Yeah, that's really cool. That's that's funny too. It's uh I don't know, you're you're a kid and and you want to recreate the thing that you're into, and you write constraints and all that, right? You have no idea how to do it with a computer, so you you you do other stuff. I mean, Kelsey, you may remember Bessimon? Oh my god. I've told people about Bessimon, by the way, this isn't the first time I've brought this up.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

I don't think I've told people about Bessimon. Yeah, measure chance to get it out. That was like water types and just oh god, how many cows.

SPEAKER_04 17:38

Yeah, imagine Pokemon, but every one is a cow.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

And like I was better than Pokemon. I wasn't particularly interested in cows as a child, so I've got to be a little bit more.

SPEAKER_04 17:49

Yeah, right. It's just like that was a one-off.

SPEAKER_02 17:50

Just like oops, like you think they would have all been cats or something, but Pika cow? Yeah, they weren't always the most original.

unknown 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:00

Not much of a lot of people. Um and then I cloned it with Aquamon where they're all fish and there was Pikafish. Um not as good as being as well.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

No, but it was good because then we would play up at the cabin and because our parents have um they share with my aunt and uncle um some property in the woods in Michigan and um very rural. And we would run around outside and I would throw like a soft ball at Alex trying to capture or initiate aquamon fights. And he'd you'd run around like yelling the noises that the fish made.

SPEAKER_04 18:35

Wow, I don't Yeah, that the the throwing the throwing a ball to emulate a pokeyball or a ring rings a bell.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

You thought you'd get me bringing up Bessimon, but Why was it called Bessimon?

SPEAKER_04 18:48

Why Bessie? Oh, because cow. I guess Bessie's a name for a cow.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

It's called I don't I don't I don't know. I don't I just I'm really stuck on why cows. Like if I see a cow driving up to the cabin one year and just think like, oh yeah, that's what I'm about now.

SPEAKER_04 19:07

I would love, frankly, I would love to like con I this is probably way too much work, but get like fit do a UFO 50, but it's like get a bunch of game devs to recreate some insane childhood game they came up with and do a collection.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

I would love that.

SPEAKER_04 19:20

Get up Bessimon and Super Kid and and whatever the hell, you know, these other like uh uh yeah, hit up um Benet Fati and see what what in what twisted shit he was making.

SPEAKER_05 19:32

I would literally taught him two days ago. I wish I wish I'd have asked that. I would love to hear uh what he would uh what he was thinking about. What was really interesting to talk about Bennett was like the amount of like for the types of games he he makes, he has nothing but compassion for the players and and love uh and a desire for them to live good, happy, long lives.

SPEAKER_04 19:55

That obviously flies completely in contradiction with with the No, I I actually played getting over it some number of years ago. Um and it starts, you know, and I I got weirdly into it. Um and I felt very seen at a certain point in a way that made me a little uncomfortable. There's a line of dialogue, it's like you get towards the top, and there's some there's some line that's like um um Oh, I think it's something like you and I we're we're we're like we're we're a lot alike. Um we're not you're not driven by um uh it's something like you're driven by like like you're not driven by like wanting to like actually reach the top. You just have this like desire to taste defeat. Um and then he's like, you won't be happy if you win. So I've put this snake here. And the snake is like, it says, do not ride the snake. And if you do, it takes you all the way back to the beginning. Um and I was just in that moment, I was just like, oh my god, he's right. Um and I rode the snake.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Why would you ride the snake?

SPEAKER_04 20:50

No regrets. I I mean I eventually beat it. I was just, I don't know. That was so so what you're saying, if it yeah, it that that actually does track really hard with uh Yeah, I wish I remember the full quote. I was just like, oh god damn it, he's got me.

SPEAKER_05 21:03

Well, he he talked about, he says what he's the feedback he's had from people is he's pushed them to the absolute limit where they look they've like broken their keyboard, they've broken their mouse, their screen is cracked, and then they pass through that into this kind of cathartic state where they're like this can't touch me anymore.

SPEAKER_04 21:24

Like I'm yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:26

I've ascended. Yeah, I think I think it's like yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 21:30

And something like that you just accept that you're just gonna fail over you're just like, this next try's not gonna be the one, nor is the one after that. And you just sort of you're like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:39

There is something nice in games and embracing failure. Just, I don't know. There's I mean, I played so much Super Mario as a kid, but like never with the um under the impression I was never laboring under the impression that I was going to beat the game. Cause my older brother couldn't beat the game and he was really good at video games.

SPEAKER_04 22:03

Wait, which game?

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Uh Mario Land 2, maybe? On the Game Boy Pocket.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, those took me a long ass time.

SPEAKER_05 22:16

Well, those are games are interesting because my memory of games like that is they were in my vernacular of games I was playing for like years. But you you see a let's pla you see a playthrough and it like takes two hours to complete this game. So exactly that, I'm either like either I just was constantly on a repetition of the early levels and never getting past a certain point. Or um I was just extremely slow. But I think you're right, Kelsey, in that point, that you don't really I don't really remember playing games with the mindset that they I knew that they would have an ending, but I really rarely very rarely reached that.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

And then I got to play again in my lobster sweater.

SPEAKER_04 23:06

Oh yeah, the lobster sweater. That's good.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

And then you s you change clothes into the green tunic because it's like tradition, and then he stays in it the rest of the game. The only difference in your next subsequent playthrough is that I think you get the pictograph earlier or something. And you you are in the lobster sweater.

SPEAKER_04 23:23

And man, I I don't like that I just know this. Um yeah, it's lobster sweater, color pictograph early, and you can um you can understand all of the Hylian language that people speak. Oh. So you actually get a which is really cool.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

That's cool.

SPEAKER_04 23:35

You actually like 'cause there's conversations, I think, between your boat and like I forget who and like second and it actually gives some um some lore context, which is neat.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

Okay, didn't know that.

SPEAKER_04 23:47

I I think I learned this like way after the fact. Um I've never been a big like second loop play player of games.

SPEAKER_05 23:56

Um do you remember the first game, Alex, that you sort of saw through to completion or that you felt like it's like, okay, I've I've played this game.

SPEAKER_04 24:04

Yeah, I I think and I I wonder sometimes if like I'm just like I I tend to be I I have to resist my completionist tendencies. Um, but I do wonder if this game is like the reason I can like throw myself at things like Bennett Fadi and then somehow enjoy it. Um or or if or if it was just always my brain was always broken in that way. Um we had a a game called um well no at a friend's house I played a game because I got really into Star Wars, you know, like a million kids. Um and there was this terrible rail shooter full motion video game called Rebel Assault. Um, because this is the 90s, and we you played it with like a you know an a joystick. And then we had we our family got a PC in our parents' room running like Windows 3 or some shit. And um my parents got me Rebel Assault 2, the sequel. Um and uh yeah, it's you know, rail shoot or some level. You you're shooting things, you're trying to fly and dodge, but it can I've won gone back and played it a few years ago, just as the nostalgia trick. And it's just like, oh my god, I can't like this thing, this is horrible. It's so hard to control. Um and I got stuck on level three for a really like, I mean, it probably wasn't that long, but in my memory as a kid, it was just like an eternity. Um, and I just threw myself at it over and over and over again. And I do remember one day uh finally beating it and like running down the hallway, like pumping my fist in the air, because um it was like like beating a boss in Dark Souls or something. Uh and then the rest of the game was way easier until I think there was another like roadblock. I think there was another difficulty spike a bit later in the game. Um and I did I did eventually beat that one. Um and so I'm like maybe that was an informative experience where I was just like, oh, games difficult games can be beaten um if I am into it enough to actually I don't know. But I I wasn't a big complete I mean growing up I didn't like beat most of the games we had.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Um You were after those gold scatullas though.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

You went slightly crazy for the gold scatullas.

SPEAKER_04 26:11

And Ocarina? Yeah. Because you can hear them and you're just like wait.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

You would shush me in the middle of like talking to you. You'd be like, no, no, I can hear one.

SPEAKER_04 26:20

I'm I mean I'm also uh an like have a uh an arachnophobe, and so I was just like I'm gonna kill those.

SPEAKER_05 26:25

I can literally hear it right now. I can hear them right now.

SPEAKER_04 26:28

Yeah. Scritch, scritch, scritch, scrit.

SPEAKER_05 26:33

So it's sort of yeah, I feel like I probably went so it's like our childhood we're not completing games, and I can't speak for yourselves, but in adulthood I'm not completing the majority of games I own. I just went through this really, really sweet period in my teens and like through to my mid-20s where I was like hammering through games and rolling credits on so many of them, and now I'm just like failing every turn to sort of uh see so many games to um to completion.

SPEAKER_04 27:00

I mean, it's fine. I I frankly wish I could like make my brain want that a little less. I do I do put games down, obviously, and like just but like there's just always something like scratching in the back of my head, just like the part of my brain that just craves challenge and and the the sense of like summoning them out, and I guess is just like no do it. And I have to be like brain that you're just you don't even like this. What it what stop? Stop. There's there's too many games.

SPEAKER_05 27:26

Um that is true, and there's more coming, so just be careful. Uh I know, I know. But to that was a wonderful sidetrack. Um, I mean, an interview could just be entire sidetracks, but I do want to come back a little bit. I wasn't sure if you all are there's an age gap if you were twins or oh, Alex is two years older. Two years older, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so and again, it's so it's interesting, you talk about like this idea of you know that mad project where like you got all the game devs to to make the games of their their childhood, whether they exist on paper or not. And you know what you you're describing is the exact same sort of stuff that I was doing with my sister. Um it's just it's it's interesting, right? Because what you you all went on to work in video games, and it's not to try and put like undue meaning or emphasis on emphasis on that stuff, but you had a childhood of play, and then that evolved, that moved into an adulthood of with you know more play or creating opportunities to play for other people, right? Um, so I wanted to talk a little bit about that. Firstly, and you you all did it in collaboration with each other as well on Outer Wilds, right?

SPEAKER_03 28:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:37

Um have you were you like you got on as siblings? Did you ever were you collaborators? Were you in conflict a lot?

SPEAKER_02 28:46

I think we got on surprisingly well, is what my my our mom says. Like a boy and a girl that close an age, like we got on great.

SPEAKER_04 28:57

Like, yeah, not like a hundred percent of the time. No.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

I mean, we had different interests and different like personalities and everything, so obviously there were some conflicts there, but no, but we did a bunch of projects.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

Um, I mean, outside of the the game stuff was really one side of it. Yeah, because it's easy now to look back and be like, oh yeah, we did a lot of game shit. Um I bet at the time um it was just like one of many things, right? It didn't really stand out.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

We also felt uh plays.

SPEAKER_04 29:25

Yeah, yeah, like yeah, plays. Uh we made a lot of home movies. Um a lot of um and those were very much like the two of us like working together on a long-term project.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

And then obviously when you were in college for originally uh cinematography, then there was that when I was in high school. Oh film, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Uh because you were originally doing a dual degree, I think.

SPEAKER_04 29:52

Yeah. I tried to do mechanical engineering and and the closest thing Michigan State had to film.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

And um he was like, oh, you uh you know, I need to I want to film like a short. That ended up being it's like 45 minutes or something, right?

SPEAKER_04 30:07

Are you talking about Larry?

SPEAKER_02 30:09

Yeah, I'm talking about Larry.

SPEAKER_04 30:10

By half an hour, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

A half an hour? Okay. So I'm I'm exaggerating, but um a longish short.

SPEAKER_04 30:16

Um it it's still too long for a while. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Like real film script. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:23

Well, no, we started that uh yeah, the movie this is this I mean so the reason we're talking this is um it's not done. It's been we started it, I was a senior in college or in in high school, and you were like a sophomore. And and then yeah, and then throughout 15. Yeah, so like the first few years of college, like we we like uh for of my college uh experience, um, we we we shot it.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Um I wasn't allowed to cut my hair for a year because we wanted to do reshoots in the summer, and Alex was like, you have to have the exact same haircut. So I had long hair for longer than I wanted. Cut it short immediately after.

unknown 31:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:05

Soon as Alexander. This is an unfinished project.

SPEAKER_04 31:07

This is because it's well, I mean we put a ton of work into it um the first few years there, and then uh it's just wildly overscoped in terms of uh visual effects uh because it's about a talking stuffed llama, and we had this uh Kelsey's like Larry it's the stuffed llama and we puppeted um him with a variety of lot of rods. And so all of that needs to be rotoscoped out. And then there's and then there's scenes with like there's fight scenes between moving vehicles on a highway. It's a lot of green screen, blue screen stuff. Um I need to I but the plan was to finish it soon. I every few years I pull it out and I'm like, this time, here's the final push. Um like I still work on it from time to time. At this point, it's just to finish it instead, you know, it's it's like and for the people who worked on it, it's fun. It's so old, it's not even HD. It was shot on a Canon XL2. Um I still I I run it on the um the old uh totally legal version of Adobe CS4 that I uh, you know, was working on back in the day. Did anyone ever pay for it? I think I can even install that shit on Windows 11, so I need to finish it before uh in the next year so that uh Windows 10 support doesn't end. Or unplug my computer from the internet, you know.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

But that was our biggest film endeavor.

SPEAKER_04 32:22

Yeah. Yeah. No, really want to finish.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

We had like a lot of our games too, like like um I remember in Lambertville, we did a lot of sword fighting in the backyard with plastic wiffle wall bags.

SPEAKER_04 32:35

That I do remember, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

And we had like lore for like characters.

SPEAKER_04 32:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

So like even our casual games were pretty involved.

SPEAKER_04 32:47

Well, world building is a treat.

SPEAKER_05 32:51

I hope you kept that canon as well. You know, you didn't sort of like diverge off or forget the lineage of your uh characters, things like that.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

We were pretty consistent.

SPEAKER_05 33:03

So it was a it was a childhood of collaboration then, you know, working together and um just making stuff, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:12

We did a lot of that. Oh, the horror short too.

SPEAKER_05 33:16

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

When I was in like eighth grade and you were in sophomore year, I think.

SPEAKER_04 33:20

Yeah, yeah, it was another film. We did a we did a a horror a short horror horror film that was fun.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

And we wrote in some friends on that one, and that was yeah. So every now and then they'd wrote people into our projects and be like, come do this with us. We'd get Aaron to do, our younger sibling, to do like voices on one of our animated stop motion movies, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_05 33:44

And I'm curious if the thing I was thinking about with like our childhoods, but well, with anything really, but in the case of moving going into something creative, um, you know, I don't realize that I'm sort of in training, you know, when I'm reading every single edition of PC Gamer magazine, you know, or recompleting Monkey Island however many times, or watching you know, Indiana Jones endlessly, like that's really where I'm getting my like doctorate in whatever it is that I'm gonna go on to do, regardless of whatever formal education I get, right? Um what is the question that I have around that? I guess I'm just curious how you feel when you're actually making work now, if it feels like you're in that same headspace that you are when you're making and obviously if it's anything like my work, and I'm guessing it would be this, it's like there's a lot more work involved, um, and you spend a lot more time answering emails and uh filling in spreadsheets than you would have done as a kid when you're making these these games, but um does it feel like the sort of same general essence of of making and creation is is is there? Or does it actually feel like something else and feel much more like work or even more like play?

SPEAKER_02 35:04

I think it really felt that way still for Outer Wilds because I was answering to you as a creative director and I was used to that. Now it's like because like I used to do um I used to, I still do, but I used to as well, um, a lot of writing when I was growing up. I just that's just a thing I did, like separate from stuff Alex and I made, I would write stories. And there's as a kid, when you're making something, you're not really answering to, you know, stakeholders. You're not answering to necessarily even a creative director, let alone like, you know, people who are financing the project or or your publisher or what have you. So and you're also not on a set guideline, you're just kind of doing it as the interest grabs you and as you're excited about it. I think that definitely changes because you're obligated to be passionate on a on a schedule and that doesn't always shake out. Like sometimes it is just work.

SPEAKER_04 36:07

Yeah, I I pretty much agree. I think I think it like depends wildly. Um like if it's if it's a project where like, yeah, I'm like write the creative lead on it, um, and and and um and there's and and the schedule is loose enough where like I'm not currently thinking about that shit, and I'm just sitting down with like a pad of paper to sketch out ideas, then yeah, it feels this it feels great. It's the same thing. Um and then other days you're just like, well, gotta go in and and hook up all these audio clips, you know, when I have a spreadsheet pulled up and you're just like um being an adult.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

I find that feeling of like when you write something, well in my case, write something, when you make something where you're just really excited to show people, I think that feeling is kind of the same of being like, look at it, look at it, look at what I did.

SPEAKER_04 36:58

Yeah, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Yeah, the core the core reason for doing it is Yeah, you wanna you wanna get people like invested and involved in it and just be like, check this out. I made a thing. Like, wait, what do you think? You know, I wrote something odd for this character. What do what do we think about that?

SPEAKER_04 37:14

I do think people tend to do their best work when they're having fun doing it. Um when it's creative. It's just but obviously you can't like not you can neither force that and nor expect that to be, you know, a thing all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

And then with respect to my all of my past projects, there have been some that I have certainly enjoyed working on more than others, whether that's because of the team involved or the core ideas involved, or like what we're actually making is, you know, I've made games where I'm like, I would never play this myself personally. And those are not as fun to make as the ones where you're like, oh yeah, I'd play this all the time.

SPEAKER_05 37:50

Um before I forget, because you said something I just wanted to pick up on you said about Kelsey like falling into that role of you know, the same through childhood or work on out of wilds that you say Alex under perceiving Alex as a creative director. Because my question was gonna be you know, is your work working relationship the same as a sibling relationship, or do you jump into different modes? Or again, was like sort of out of wilds, it's like, no, no, this is the this is the same dynamic. Like this is gonna I mean clearly what however you did it, it worked right with what you ended up creating. I'm just curious what that dynamic was.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

I think it was kind of the same dynamic as a normal sibling creating, you know. We didn't there were times where there are there are places you can go with a sibling that you can't go with a coworker. And there are things you can say to your sibling where you're like, this isn't gonna work, this is terrible, you know. And like I would never say that with a coworker, I'd be like, oh, well, maybe let's try something different. You know, I'd be more careful.

SPEAKER_04 38:55

I don't remember either of us ever saying something was terrible for what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

No, I don't think we did, but I think I think I'm blunter with you than I would ever be with a normal coworker. And we tended to cut to the core immediately of what we were thinking about. I'm like, oh, well, the problem with that is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then Loan would have to step in and be like, but do you like the idea? And I'm like, oh what? No, the idea is fantastic. Just here's what we should do to make it work. Because we have to do, you know, to in order to facilitate the idea happening, I got to do X, Y, Z, and that's fine. We got, you know. But like sometimes you forget to start with, hey, that's a fantastic idea. Let's do that. And you go straight to like, all right, here are the problems we got to solve.

SPEAKER_04 39:34

Yeah, I think I think, I mean, there were times where it was just you and I hashing stuff out, but in other times where it was because Loan was the other um um designer on Outer Wilds, and also the three of us were really like kind of put the writer's room in in in like the story team rather, right? Kelsey did the vast majority of the actual writing in the game, but the three of us were you know, having meetings, sitting down, hashing out problems.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

Um figuring out like what text needed to go where and what plot point needed to happen when, and oh, we gotta change this because now this has to happen. A lot of that was mapped out in our our you know, shared meetings. And yeah, Loan was a good He honestly, I Loan is the only person I think I've ever worked with in conjunction with Alex, where Loan was able to kind of keep up with the the sibling dynamic. Like it didn't feel like when he interjected, like it I didn't feel like I was being slowed down or anything. Like sometimes it was slowing us, it slowed us down, but it was a good thing to slow down.

SPEAKER_04 40:31

No, he's got a different person. Like Loan and I work really well for that reason too, and when we're doing design. Loan's great because like we can riff off each other, like we're we're usually on the same page, and then when we're not it's uh we balance each other in a way that's good, I think.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Um we've worked with other people at the same time where it's just been like like you and I were so super in sync and the other person was kind of left out a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 40:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how you're gonna do that.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

And like, you know, you don't you don't love to see that happening, but it's also like how do you undo a sibling dynamic?

unknown 41:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:05

I think there's something what that trifector thing, when you can get that with three people, um, is something really sp really special. And again, and the try you can sort of disconnect, and these two points can work together well, and these two, and um you can get a lot done, a lot of really good, really good stuff done.

SPEAKER_04 41:24

Um yeah, dynamics really, really important, and it's got it's so hard. You just don't how do you how do you plan for that, right?

SPEAKER_05 41:31

It's I think it's a lot about I mean you could you especially when you're I think hiring or um in my experience, it's I've been we've I've been doing a lot of like onboarding of people that you know it's not not high, it's the collab collaborators, people gonna be like taking on huge, huge roles in in this project, and you're going on so little information. No, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 41:56

Like we I feel like we've gotten very lucky over the years, but like you know, it doesn't always work out the way you know you kind of hope initially. And it's just hard. On some level, it is it is a bit of a like, well, you know, fingers crossed.

SPEAKER_05 42:10

But it's actually when you were talking, you know, about that just being able to cut through this stuff and get right into it. You know, we were sort of working with this editor now, and I think the reason I wanted to work with him is because he sort of did that, except we'd only been speaking for five minutes before he started doing it, and he he kind of scared the crap out of me. Uh in a in a good way. Like the you know that's great.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

I got into trouble a lot in the industry. I've gotten into trouble for being as direct as I am, and I I definitely learned that like because Outer Wilds was the first real big game that I worked on. And so like I learned a very direct style of approach. And then I didn't have to manage people's egos on that project. I came off of it thinking everyone was as well adjusted and as comfortable in their ideas and as like confident about like being a you know, like confident in themselves as a creative. I'm like, yeah, these people are way older than Alex, so of course they're gonna whoa, wrong. Some people are are, I have learned, far less confident in their abilities than their abilities would you'd you'd guess from from what you've seen them do.

SPEAKER_04 43:24

Aaron Powell The irony there is that like just I'm I'm glad it feels like that in the moment, because I would not describe myself as a particularly like confident, like depends on the thing. But like it's not even but I know what I know what you're talking about. Like when you're because you've told me shit from other. Yeah. No, I think you're comfortable saying, like, oh, this isn't quite working.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Let's go. You're you're you've got high um there's a little bit of a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 43:52

I don't know if raw confidence is what's happening there, because I think we uh we both uh It's just you you um If anything, unreasonable.

SPEAKER_02 44:01

You're not precious about ideas.

SPEAKER_04 44:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We try we try to yeah not be precious about shit. That's true.

SPEAKER_02 44:07

Um and I think that's huge in making video games is not being precious about stuff and being willing to be wrong in development. Yeah. And being willing to be challenged. I am unfortunately somebody that kind of tends to challenge people a little bit. I don't mean to, but I ask a lot of questions trying to understand why things are the way they are and in doing so.

SPEAKER_04 44:29

No, from what you told me I'm just you just ask like what's like you ask like very normal questions, but unfortunately they're just the ones that just like lay bare like what like like oh they have not thought about X, Y, or Z in their own.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

My old boss used to call me a grenade. He's like, I'm gonna lob you into this meeting, and you're gonna ask the questions I need you to ask, and it's gonna blow things up a bit, but it's okay. We're gonna like we need to do this. And I'm like, okay, here we go.

SPEAKER_04 44:55

No, it just yeah, cracks.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

I'm always gonna ask the question where I've just absolutely stepped in it, and people are like, We've been trying to figure that out for years.

SPEAKER_05 45:23

Don't need this, da da. Objectively, just like telling the objective truth. But his his response to it was like, Oh, I think he kind of hated it. And I was looking at it, it's like, oh yeah, I see why you would think that because you've been given like unfiltered feedback, right? And it's it is interesting, I think, which is which is really really really really really helpful. I said, what you've got here is a result of someone who knows what they're talking about and cares very deeply about um what they're looking at. That's what you get, is something that hurts your heart a little bit, but um there's it's not that they don't like it, they're just telling you the truth. And I think it's really hard sometimes to discern the difference between those two things.

SPEAKER_02 46:04

And the the nice part about working with with Alex and the team on Mobius at Mobius was just I could be that, you know, sincere and that direct and that level of you know, trying to fix things, and it wasn't taken as, oh, you think my idea is shit. And it's it's something I've really had to work on in the rest of the industry where I'm like, oh, you gotta be careful because you don't know who's gonna take it like your your son did, and who who's been around long enough where it's like, oh no, I know what this is, I know how to interpret this.

SPEAKER_04 46:38

A lot of it's communication too. Like once you write, yeah, create a rapport and like and like Creating a rapport is tough. How feed you know, just everyone has an understanding of like what type of feedback is like critical but constructive, but you know, not trying, you know, and and there's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

And there are some people that just can't take critical feedback, and that's part of your job. I think still give them feedback.

SPEAKER_04 47:02

There's a way to do critic constructive feedback without being a dick, obviously. You don't want to just go in and and and and and which is not what you do at all. And that's why I'm just but there are it is yeah, distressing how many um Yeah, I we i it's hard. It's hard to learn how to take criticism. I mean, I'm not good at it half the time, you know, I still get crit feedback, and I'm just like, oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

That's like what being a writer is is just like taking your heart out of your chest and being like, I made this for you, and someone being like, I thought it would be better and also different. And you're just like, oh, different how?

unknown 47:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:33

It's my least favorite piece of feedback ever. It's like, I thought it would be something else. And I'm like, I don't know what to tell you. Make it different.

SPEAKER_04 47:42

God, that's what my one of my thesis advisors essentially, I uh what is it, Peter Brunson, at one point early in in thesis year. Um I had pitched, I uh I think it was like the first kind of version of my thesis I sort of pitched. And yeah, his feedback was just like, oh I thought you were gonna do something weird like that quantum prototype you had. Um he was just like clearly disappointed. He was like, I just yeah, I thought it would just be something different and better. Um like he didn't say that, but it was clearly and and because and that's and that's the reason the quantum moon is in the game, because I was sort of just like I'll show you weird. I'll make a weird. I'll show you weird. I'm gonna make a moon that moves. And like I was like, thank you, Peter. Thank you for telling me what a weird weird. Yeah. Exactly. It's good to be, you need feedback, you need to be challenged.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

But you can't be challenged all the time or else it's just exhausting.

SPEAKER_04 48:37

No, the thing that drives me the most nuts is people giving feedback when they know certain things are just locked in stone and there's nothing you can do about it anymore, and yet they focus on all these things, and you're like what do you want me to do?

SPEAKER_02 48:51

It'd be great if this were different, and you're like, yeah, it would. It can't be.

SPEAKER_05 48:55

Yeah. But don't you love it when you get that person and they're like, I just have one thing, just you know, make this bigger, and you're good. And you're like, great, I can do that. You know, those people who really know how to just drill into like the one, two, or three like big picture things. Um, and usually that fixes whatever the hundred other things are that people might think um are an issue. I think I've I've learned, I'm learning it a lot recently, and it's one of those things once you see it, it's kind of hard not to use it as a barometer, but like, oh, I'm feeling defensive, which means a part of me might be in the wrong here, you know, in terms of that being able to take feedback. Like if I don't want to hear it, if I feel agitated about it, it means there might be some element of truth to this note that I need to at least investigate. And then I can come out the other side saying, you know, no, actually, this is good. But if I'm like spitting that out answer out very quickly without investigating, then I kind of know it's like you're gonna have to go. You're gonna have to look at this, you know.

SPEAKER_04 50:02

Like that, yeah, yeah. That's true. Being being being self-aware of enough of like, yeah, your emotional state to realize when something is when your like hackles are being raised and you're like, god damn it.

unknown 50:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:15

And um were I keep I keep coming like going forward and then back to childhood, but I'm interested. Um when you were making stuff, were you just entertaining yourselves? Or was there someone in mind you know that you wanted to get first first time?

SPEAKER_04 50:34

A lot of the movies we made, correct me if I'm wrong, Kelsey, they're they were like I think this was I mean we wanted to do it anyway, I think it was an interesting but the motivating thing was like a lot of them were like gifts for our parents for like Christmas.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

The games were just for us.

SPEAKER_04 50:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:49

But the movies were mostly for our parents.

unknown 50:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:54

Um I mean the super kid stuff was like I I don't know right, that was just because I wanted to right, it was it was so because you liked enjoyed playing it and I that was there's always there's always I don't know, I think I think both of us always made stuff for the most part with at least a theoretical audience in mind, right? Or I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Yeah, when we did some stuff with RPG Maker, like I was making it for you. Yeah, so you were you were my target demographic.

SPEAKER_04 51:20

Like if you're not yeah, if you don't get to like watch people play or watch or whatever, right? That's the yeah, very much I think we both wanted to make things for in at least in theory other people to enjoy.

SPEAKER_05 51:32

When you would make stuff for your parents and like show them, would you like just be really intensely like watching them for you know to to to get some kind of validation or confirmation of their expression that yes, they are pleased with what you have created, or were you were you a bit more chill than that?

SPEAKER_02 51:51

I'd like to think we were more chill than that, but I well no, I can't do that.

SPEAKER_04 51:56

Um if I'm I know like because even now, I I like I like being in the room when someone's like seeing a thing, right? Because it's like, you know, you're like, oh, here it is. This is the the performance or whatever. Like here's the here's the presentation of the thing that we worked on. Um but like I can't bring myself to like look at people's faces directly. I'm like, I like hear them the when they like make you know reactions and like in the corner of my eye, but I I can't it's too much just like looking straight. It's too direct of like I can't do it.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

That's fair. I think I agree with you.

SPEAKER_02 52:26

Like even watching, like, I don't know. Watching our own stuff back, I also like I get absorbed in it and I start thinking like, oh yeah, that's when we did this thing, and like, oh, we could have done this part differently, or like, oh, this part's really good. And I start thinking about that instead of the person watching the I get embarrassed watching like streamers play our games. I I I can't really like people were always with Outer Wilds, especially. They're like, Did you watch this streamer play? And I'm like, no. Please don't make me do that. So it's it's tough. Playting things in-house is tough.

SPEAKER_05 53:03

I think you know, with with our conversation, Kelsey, like a lot of the I think what people were interested in was you, you know, you talked about that thing, that the difficulty of being able to absorb um people's you know, you talked about it being hard if someone says, Oh why I wish it was different, I wish it was something else, but it can also be hard when someone's like, I really love this and this like changed my life, and da da da, you know. Um like the the and I I do sometimes wonder if as a creator there's only so much that you can ever really truly appreciate that. Do you know what I mean? Like even if you can fully appreciate it, um you you're maybe never really you're you're never gonna know what it's gonna feel like to play out a world.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

Um I mean like a lot of people talked about it of like, oh, it made me feel like I say a lot of people, some people, talked about it addressing their death anxiety and being forced to kind of confront that and that being therapeutic for them and like the ending being therapeutic for them and changing how they approach thinking about the subject. And I was like, Cool, could somebody else make a game that fixes my death anxiety?

SPEAKER_04 54:16

Right, right? Yeah, no, a hundred percent. No, I hear I hear people do that. I'm just like, you know, you'd think like, yeah, we like working on that sequence would help.

SPEAKER_01 54:24

No, no, it's I mean, like it was good to address those ideas and touch on them for sure.

SPEAKER_02 54:28

There's something to be said for exposure therapy, but like when you put stuff out into the game, it's like it's not always stuff I've worked out in my head. Like I don't know what I'm not always at peace with stuff. It's uh sometimes it's a snapshot of what my current position is on something or where my brain is at on it. It's like that's all I can offer you. And there's also something to be said for when they're like, oh, I loved it. I'm like, but I made it. Like that was me. I did that, and I don't know that like I get to be called like good at whatever, you know. I just it's hard, it's hard to accept praise. I I feel more comfortable when people are like, I really liked it, I liked this part, I didn't like this part. And I'm like, okay, cool, a measured tape. But anytime somebody comes at me with I loved everything about it, I'm like, why? How?

SPEAKER_00 55:17

No, you didn't.

SPEAKER_05 55:20

Uh what about you, Alex, on that front?

SPEAKER_04 55:23

Oh, I no, very, very similarly. It's like um I mean, because I mean I mean, because uh not to be like, right, I've I mean it's like no, it's it's art, right? We're like putting ourselves into this. I think I mean I'm like only semi-conscious of like, you know, this is like right the sh some of the shit that ended up in there and and like you know the endings very much Kelsey and I kind of like having similar, just I don't know, it just kind of jamming stuff out and it and it's more vibes-based than a lot of other stuff in the game. Um it's fun to work on. Um things I'm most proud of in all of Outer Wilds, but like hearing people.

SPEAKER_02 55:59

I kind of originally dreaded working on the end of the game because I'm like, it's getting depressing and weird and sad. And I was like, well, it kind of is those things, but it's also other stuff.

SPEAKER_04 56:07

Um No, I had I had a blast doing that. Um but like yeah, having people come and and like you know say the things they say about Outer Wilds. I think there's just I think there's a limit and and and nothing above that limit registers, which I think is a good thing. Um, because I think if it did, um uh we'd be really full of ourselves. Um and I think I think it's good that you just don't internalize certain things. You're like cool.

SPEAKER_02 56:30

It kind of bounces off. It's like nice. People appreciated it. I like that. Moving on.

SPEAKER_04 56:34

Yeah, like um no, it's super cool. It's like obviously it feels amazing to have to have touched people and to see people getting you know, a lot of things that we did very intentionally and seeing that communicated um and people having emotional experiences, like as we like more or less, you know, sort of planned on some level.

SPEAKER_03 56:52

But yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 56:54

If someone comes up to you and is just like, this this is this is my my favorite game uh ever. You're just like or my favorite.

SPEAKER_02 57:01

I got a tattoo of it. Yeah, you're just it's I'm like, you know those are permanent, right?

SPEAKER_04 57:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 57:12

Well then, but that's the thing, right? We've got our own we we you know, you all have your own outer wilds, right? That that that you know change your lives and obsessed with, you know. Um so you know, you know what that feels like on the player side. I think what you said though there, you're right, and there's nothing wrong with that, I don't think. There's a there's a limit. There just there just is, because you couldn't, I mean, you know, it would be like taking in it would be like taking in too much of anything. Your your head and your heart would would explode.

SPEAKER_04 57:38

It's like if that limit didn't exist, we wouldn't need to make the game in the first place, because we'd all be like telepathic and sharing experiences and stuff, right? And and there would be no need for this sort of medium um intermediary, I guess. Um but it's super cool though. I mean, you know, it feels really obviously it's like feels good to have made something, and then no matter what happens, if even if you know everything I make from here on out is absolute trash, it's just like, well people seem to like this one game we made.

SPEAKER_05 58:14

And I'm curious when you make something, anything, who are the who's the sort of first person that you want to put it in front of that you that you either want to see because you want to sense check it with them, or you just want to show them because you want to show them. Like for me, I always want my wife to watch something, but then I kind of have this issue where I get really intense around whatever I've shown her as well, and she's like, Oh, I wasn't sure. It's like no, that's because of this. Like I don't give her much space to like take it in, but I also really want her to watch it anyway. That's my own little thing I should work through. Um but for you all.

SPEAKER_04 58:58

It sort of depends. Um I mean these days, like, you know, a lot of it I mean I mean work stuff is its own thing. It's like yeah, usually whoever play, you know, playtesters, frankly. Um, or or other people on the team, right? Depending on on what it is. If it's like side, if it's like more personal stuff, um yeah, my girlfriend often I'll be like, let me show you this thing.

SPEAKER_02 59:20

Um John, I think, is my answer my partner, my spouse is the person that like, I've made something weird, look at this. Or like, I got a good joke in, or you know, I did a piece of writing and I want someone to see it. Also send you stuff. I send Aaron stuff too. But yeah, siblings and spouse are my my main. I've got a really good friend who's a writer that I sometimes send stuff to as well.

SPEAKER_04 59:51

Actually, you were not the first person. I was about to say, like, oh yeah, like the Super Kid 2 uh remake in Unity. Um, but actually, no, because I had to play test that before you played it. I had Logan playtest that. Uh and she had a very bad time. And I was like, I was like, thank God I'm play testing this, even though it seems silly because I completely changed uh the control scheme.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:14

Oh, because on my birthday I was playing with an audience. I had friends there, and they were all like watching me, like, what is this? What's going on? And I'm like, don't worry about it. It's a thing that has personal significance.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:27

Oh, it was fun.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:29

And was um, you know, I guess I just think, you know, like it in my experience, you know, my the projects take such a long time. You certainly can't, I can't rely on my partner, my wife, or my stepkids or friends, family to have like an infinite source of enthusiasm and positive feedback for me. Like they just no one could could hold that up. You know, I've I've I have learned like, okay, I need to be sort of self-supporting in my own assurance that I'm on the right path. But at the same time, I think it's really nice when you have like champions in your life that they don't have to be like screaming from the rooftop for you the whole time, but just those little nudges of like assurance that like that's awesome, that's great. Like one of those every couple of weeks or months usually can keep keep me going for for a long while. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:23

Oh no, absolutely. I also do that classic writer thing of like, oh no, I'm a terrible writer. No, like where you just have a total breakdown about something and I go find John and I'm like, no, I'm the worst at this. And John's like, you made good things and you like them yourself. But I'm like, I know. So not to just have to be reminded that I'm not the worst at things.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:43

I think I think that's uh I think yeah, we come by that honestly, for whatever reason. Like our parents are very supportive, by the way. I don't know why.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:53

Yeah, no, there's no reason why we're like this, but but this is the result of very supportive parents, in my experience. It's like we picked up.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:08

It could be could be worse. Um I think what you were saying too, though, uh or a minute ago, with uh um in in the meantime, between yeah, having having like cheerleaders in your life who can like check in on your work, I yeah, I mean the first person who plays any of my shit is me, actually, right? And and like like that that you know, you do you do want the thing you're making to be something that you are at least a little bit into, depending on you know who the eventual audience is meant to be. So um it's always good when I don't know, especially I guess more this happens more with side projects, right? You take take some sort of a break, take some distance from something, come back to it and and uh look at it with fresh eyes, and it's always nice when you're like, wait, this is cool. It's a good that's a good feeling.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:51

But I don't always think No, I do that with writing fairly often where I'm like, this actually was a good piece of writing or this was a good story idea. I should do something with this. But it's a little hard when your job is writing and then your sa your hobby is also writing.

unknown 1:03:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:07

No, right? It well, and it's hard to have yeah, that perspective all the time if you're just doing it every right.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:12

I don't want to bird myself out on it, so I haven't written a whole lot on the side.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:16

Just need to like you know, clone yourself and like keep them in the closet for you know a few minutes. Fresh Kelsey fresh eyes.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:24

I think it it brings something up that's about you know that no one's gonna spend more time on your work than you, obviously. Uh whether it be the whole game or the whatever piece of a game that you're working on, a film that you're working on. And I think no matter what, and I Kelsey, I'd like to do the exact same with with Jessica, where like I need to go to her to tell her how like bad I am at something. And they're just like, no, you're not. I'm like, and ideally I only do that like once a month. Like I can't do that every day, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:52

And that exactly It's not a regular breakdown, it's just an occasional, hey, I'm not I'm not literally the worst at this, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:03:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:00

You've seen my good work, you like it, yes?

SPEAKER_05 1:04:03

And that they should only have to answer once, you know. Um three times a day whether they're a good fit or not. Um but what I was gonna get at was like at the end of the day, I think no matter how much self-doubt I have or lack of confidence and all these things, there's a deep part of me that trusts what I'm doing and I trust myself, and I kind of know that I got it. Um because the work eventually, eventually the work does speak for itself, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:40

And big on the phrase trust the process, which is an annoying phrase, but is a useful one because sometimes I'll find myself in the middle of developing a story for a game, and I'm just like, this is a pile of hot garbage, and I don't know what I'm doing. I have all this heckin' spaghetti, and like what am I throwing at the wall? How much of it's sticking, what do I piece together? But like I've done this before a lot. It's a it's a process I'm familiar with, and even though it feels bad and vague and uncertain in the middle of you know, middle of the process, it's like you know you're gonna come out the other side of the tunnel. It that's j you know, you always do. So you just kind of have to trust that that's gonna happen and that it's gonna look good when it does.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:28

It's a good reminder for me, yeah. Right now, you know. Um because it is ended, we talked about that again, like with play becoming work and like not enjoying it. And I think sometimes we you can sort of funnel into that and realize you've gone days or weeks at a time a little bit more miserable and probably should I'm just talking for myself here, you know. And you sort of have to snap yourself out of it and be like, no, no, I gotta I gotta like bring the joy here or else I'm gonna be corrupting what I'm what I'm working on, right? Because that feeds into it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:59

I think what I stop playing is kind of when I start having trouble with my work. If that makes sense. If I like get to the end of the day and I'm like, oh all I have energy for is to like do nothing. Versus I get to the end of the day and I'm like, oh I want to do a thing, you know. I want to make something. I wanna I wanna play a game. I wanna, you know, create something. Like that's vital, I think, for keeping my ability to create alive. Is to just kind of stoke that fire. Even if it's you're stoking it with a project that's not terribly important. I'm doing Inktober and like I'm so bad at drawing. I am not good at this. But like it's fun. And it's it's something that feels satisfying to look at the page and be like, yep, there's another doodle on there. I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:50

What about you Alex? Do you sort of do you know what is the thing that keeps you kind of self-sustaining?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:56

Um I mean depends on the project but but usually usually there's like a core like like I mean even like Larry right like God it's it's been this project it's never gonna end no it needs to end. Better end like like like even though it's just never the most important thing I should be working on and it's hard to maintain, you know, it's just like there is the reason I keep opening it up every every few years even though the actual work by the way at this point is not super fun. Ever there's a few fun things um but it is a lot of just like uh kind of rotoscoping grunt work. Um it's just the belief that the core thing, even though I don't think it's a like a good movie per se, um I'm proud of what we did. And it's like I do want to, you know it's it's a sometimes it's this motivation of just wanting to reach the finish line. I think I get I go through phases where you know sometimes I'm like just really interested like it's just fun. I just open the project up like um like SuperKit. I don't know why, but for whatever reason that thing's fun to work on. I'm just like oh I'm just gonna do a little bit of this and I'm gonna, you know, and and just trying to solve all these little problems and I can kind of because I'm not getting you know paid for it. It's not a commercial I can just work on whatever part of it I feel particularly um drawn to at that moment. And so that one's really easy.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:21

I think it's really important to have creative projects that you have full ownership over, even if they're just side projects. You got to have something where it's like it's fine if I have complete yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:33

The not yeah the knowledge that like I don't this doesn't have to be the best thing ever. It can just be fun. So yeah having fun but but also I just I I think I do just have kind of like a there's a stubbornness about how I work on things that has served me well. I think I took it for granted for a long time but like um I do think it's one of the things that like um i i if it's a project that I believe in at least even if it's something as silly as Larry right as long as there's some core thing where I'm like no this needs to exist. Even if it takes a long ass time, I will keep poking at it relentless.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:08

It's the same stubbornness that makes you play like Bennett Body games, I think.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:12

Yeah right right it's yeah there's a blue line there. Completionism uh the double-edged blade um so so yeah which which just helps sustain me through the periods where I'm not as like um just jazzed about it, you know. Because sometimes you know there are a certain tests on every project where you're just like well this kind of blows but uh you gotta do it. Barks. Barks.

unknown 1:09:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:36

Oh barks for uh like like guards shouting things and oh no I'm on fire.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:43

But I'm not allowed to write that yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:46

Ouch ouch no just just say stop him. That's that's all you're allowed to say. Must have been the wind. Must have been the window there are there are certain barks that you write and you write them and you're like no well it can't be that but you're just like but that is what they would say is going to hear it seven thousand times you know what can you hear a thousand times and still really enjoy hearing it precious little precious little that you can hear that many times. And just to find the thing I uh I was just curious what what it you know so yeah you you obviously grew up showing your parents these films do they have any sort of viewer opinion on you know what you've done with outer wilds is it just a kind of like what on kids you did great there. Good effort.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:38

Oh like their their feelings about Outer Wilds?

SPEAKER_05 1:10:40

Yeah. And just seeing you create create something um you know I would say they have differing I mean they they're both they're they're very proud of us.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:50

They're enormously proud it's actually outrageous sometimes like they need to cool it like my dad will chat up strangers about his kids who made this video game and we're like you have to stop. They don't care.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:01

Yeah I didn't I was I was thinking about yeah he's he's yeah sometimes we're just like I don't know I I he's he has sold copies of the game though I'm just like goddamn like he's moving copies. Yeah um and uh uh he's also been trying to play it um God bless his heart because uh I'll make you a playthrough it's so hard for them to so they haven't actually really interacted with the game itself a whole lot they've more interacted than I thought he did.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:30

Oh really?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:30

Oh yeah oh yeah he's like gotten to Sunless Diddy and shit Oh no I'm it is impressive but he also um doesn't have he can't he can't like sit and play it for like long enough and consistently enough so he just immediately forgets everything and has no idea where to get back to places. I mean I am you know it's cool. I'm just like oh my God you really you are trying to play this um it is it is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:58

I would love for them to I don't know I don't know if there's a way to experience like there's it's it's hard to like sit down and make a long video and be like here watch someone play this and like here's your your playthrough and now you do you get it? Like they're never gonna get it in that sense which is a little bit of a shame because it's like oh you wouldn't ever sit down and play it with them.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:21

I suppose I think they should play it together. The thing is I just I just think it's a time commitment that they they they by the way we play video they play Mario Kart with us and stuff. Oh yeah and our and our mom is like not bad. Like so like they play video games. It's just I think Outer Wilds is a type of game they want there's just so much literacy you need. Yeah they didn't grow up doing the the precursor homework and yeah and and and overall I don't think they're like as into visual media as we are um which is fine.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:56

Yeah it's it's an interesting I mean that's the beauty of a film right it's kind of like you can get your parents to sit down for 90 minutes, you know um but uh a game runs a little longer. But I love hearing that just the attempt because even to like get off the first you know to leave and navigate space and go in any direction. Yeah although they beautifully crafted controls and makes it very easy to to do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:21

It's very sweet and like and again and then like yeah like our dad does have that experience and he thinks it's super fucking cool and he he keeps saying shit like like I've like never seen it like I've never seen a game do this before. Like never and I'm but but to which I'm just like you haven't played a game really in like many decades. We made a very cool video game but also I promise you there is just oh there are so many cool things out there that you just have never ever seen. Everything's relative but no I do it is really cool that they have made yeah I've tried.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:56

And they they really have been just incredibly supportive the whole time we've you know the whole time we were making it and once it came out so like it's we're very lucky to have parents that were like hey we were we're gonna go into this incredibly unstable niche creative industry is that you know we're cool with that I knew I knew I had made it when my dad stopped asking me if I would ever consider going finishing my engineering degree.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:22

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:23

Not to throw him under the bus too much I just I did notice I was like oh he hasn't asked that in a while I don't know when I think once I got that job with Insomniac on contract and I went and moved to North Carolina for a while I think that was mom and dad being like oh so this is like a career there's like a certain question that's when I also realized it was a career.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:48

Yeah yeah yeah it's a there's a question my dad asks which he hasn't asked in a little while now and I I think I need to go a couple more months so if I can get get over like a full year without this prompt around employment security I'll know I've made it um and but yeah I think I mean I think that's just that that like you said we can we can have the the the self-doubt and all that stuff but that there's something you know again same thing. I was grew up without ever any sort of chastisement or criticism for spending all my time with Lego and gaming and all this stuff and it it baked in this this unconscious self-assurance that of course it was a totally reasonable thing for me to go off and and uh go do this thing and just on the parent it's been interesting again reading the comments of both your videos a lot of people talking about you obviously hear the parent playing the game with their kid but a lot of people talk about them playing the game with their parents which I thought was really cool. That is really cool yeah like either sitting there and just playing it with the controls themselves or handing them back and forth for the the harder parts um yeah what a beautiful game for that um well this has been exactly what I sort of wanted it to be I knew we I kind of wanted to see like what percentage of the conversation could we be like not talking about outer wilds because we're we're inevitably gonna talk about outer wilds it's not about avoiding that but I just love hearing about all of that kind of back the back end right i.e like childhood and all the good stuff that's going on um I think it's really important for people to hear this stuff because it's just like demystifies and again that was what I think people got from your interviews where it's like oh I kind of see I can connect the dots as to how maybe could make something even it's a script or a game or a picture or movie like whatever. So um I think it's always really important when people um that have made work like yourselves are willing to to share these kind of stories.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:54

Cheers happy to do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:55

Yeah no absolutely like just yeah if it can be useful that's amazing. Going yeah yeah right I'm just like oh ramble about our childhood but uh yeah if it's if it's actually helpful to anyone gr great great realizing now that there's pretty much never any moments where somebody was like no you can't do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:14

So we're like okay well like of course I can write a movie script why not?

SPEAKER_05 1:17:19

No one's ever told me I can't I think what's scary is I don't know I I think some when you're a kid especially like you you you only need to maybe hear that once.

unknown 1:17:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:31

Okay I won't yeah if I'd gotten the wrong response to a book I'd written one time I think I would have just been like well I die. I simply perish.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:40

Yeah there's one thing I yeah miss. I mean because yeah no one no one ever yeah told us that we couldn't couldn't do that um which was amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:48

Um I think the only thing so that we ended up doing a lot of things that you know otherwise we wouldn't have done.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:54

Totally no totally no the thing I miss the most about um making stuff as a kid frankly is just um I I I hadn't uh I didn't have that kind of internal voice yet um worried that it wasn't you know gonna be good or like um maybe I'm not actually good at any of this or like because you just don't care. You're a kid you just want to make shit, right? And so um I think actually I was I I guess this is me just remembering your earlier question. And I and I guess for me it's just like yeah maybe it is like uh the the goal or the my best work is when I somehow get that little voice to shut up. Um and and it is more like so I so I guess in a way it is the closer you can get to a certain type of that you know just just making shit as a kid mindset. Um but um some aspect of that I think is is yeah good to keep in mind something to be to aspire to but for all that the dumb adult shit gets in the way.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:50

That's probably why I'm so big on whimsy is it's it's not that I'm trying to be twee. It's just that there's there's such a kid like element there of like just doing what you want making things up with your imagination.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:07

Making and and and making things right without the goal of uh I mean we're super lucky that we're like we like get paid to do creative stuff. Oh god yes right like like to be clear like holy shit um still amazes me regularly the the dream like really um and so like you can't complain.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:24

Um but it is also getting it there are pressures and stresses that come with that.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:28

Exactly like the more and and just I don't know it's the whole like just ultimately the the dream would be people just getting to make cool creative things without having to you know think about like is this gonna sell? Is this gonna how am I gonna write sustain my livelihood?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:43

Can I just like um are we marketing too much to one type of player? Do we need to make the game more accessible to other player types? Yeah. Do we need to change the content accordingly?

SPEAKER_04 1:19:56

Aaron Ross Powell Maybe one day we'll live in a magical future where um people Universal basic income?

SPEAKER_05 1:20:03

Yeah universal basic income yay we did it and just uh make cool shit and not have to worry about you know the uh the uh the hellscape we find ourselves in um well it's it's funny you know again talk because I literally just spoke with Bennett Bennett Foddy you know he's talking about he started making his games on flash on the internet with like no assumption or pressure that anyone's gonna look at it and certainly no one's paying for it and with that in mind it's like well I'm just gonna make whatever the hell I want and then I'm gonna make these in the thing you'd have to deliver on yeah Outer Wilds was never I I never had any illusions in in in the you know grad school that it was going to be something that we'd ever sell um you know obviously at a certain point at Mobius it was like oh no we're gonna have to sell this um but uh but yeah like the core right the the original conception of it was was free of that requirement. Hi there if you're still watching you made it to the secret ending which is also just the ending but actually in terms of my retention statistics only about 33% of people make it this far. I don't like to share those statistics but only 33% of people are going to hear this anyway. If you're here I want to ask a big favor of you would you like to join my Patreon for free or you can become a paying member for a bonus episode every month and early access to all my pre-recorded interviews as well I just really want to build up this community get connected with you all I love making these videos this one was a particular pleasure to make and if you haven't seen my chair video uh sitting as a form of protest in video games you can watch that now or another one of my uh pieces as well thank you very much