How Outer Wilds Taught Us to Make Peace With Death | Alex Beachum Creative Director of Outer Wilds

SPEAKER_03 0:00

You're on a little planet and you're at a you you roast a marshmallow over a campfire and you can kinda heal hear owls hooting in the trees and then in the distance the sun explodes. One of the themes of Outer Wild is well, maybe there is no inherent meaning to any of this and things will end and you will die, and that's kind of that. But isn't it more interesting to explore and learn things and you know meet and talk to people and try to have a nice time than just you know not.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Hi there, my name is Steven Lake, and welcome to the Examined Game. Today we are talking with Alex Beecham, the creator of Outer Wilds, and I spoke with him six years on from the release of this incredible game. That was a slightly uh downer of an intro, but it's just too good of one not to use. Alex was an extraordinarily kind of upbeat, optimistic, um, curious, interesting guy, um, and I was loved chatting with his sister Kelsey Beecham, the writer of Outer Worlds, and I kind of wanted to use this interview as a sort of counterpart to that, start to build out the whole story of this incredible game. I love this game. We talk about the games that he was into as a kid, things that inspired, went on to inspire Outer Worlds, his interests that he felt like he built into the game, and also this idea of emotional prototyping where you're just sort of building out based on a feeling. Because this game has such an incredible story behind it, and I feel like we've got a bit of insight as to how that happened with Alex today. Please do subscribe, enjoy the episode. Thank you very much. Pleased that Kelsey sort of pointed me in your direction or pointed you in my direction. You know, had such a brilliant um chat with her. I always curious about early experience of a game that may not be one of their top games, but it's it's something that sort of showed them like, hey, there's something going on here inside of me when I play this thing and I want to keep doing it.

SPEAKER_03 1:45

Oh my god. Um when I think of childhood games, sort of the first thing that pops into mind is um, wow, this must have been on like Windows 3 or whatever. We got a we got a family computer pretty early on. And so my early experiences were with that, and we got uh the Magic School Bus games. Um I don't know if when you talked to Kelsey, she mentioned, but we had these like point-and-click, they're like educational.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

They sort of like sort of trick you into learning and having fun at the same time, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:13

Yeah, you click around and you'd and and we had, of course, uh explores the uh Magic School Bus explores the solar system and you'd go to the different planets, and then they're little platformer levels you'd play, which in retrospect pretty janky, but um they'd all have different gravities, which um even even at that, even as a child, I was like, oh, that's pretty cool. Um, Jupiter, it's so hard. It's so so much gravity.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Um that's pretty cool. It was educational uh video games that that that you're sort of pulling from that well of of memory. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:44

Yeah, yeah. I had it's funny because we had those, and then I also at a friend's house I found out about, and then my parents uh got me the sequel, uh The Star Wars, a Rebel Assault, which was this like rail shooter. We had like a joystick with like full motion video like acting. Um uh it was really hard though, and I remember grinding on level three for ages and then like pumping my fists and running down the hallway when I finally beat it. So I don't know if that's what instilled my love of like brutally difficult games, um, or if if it's the right, I just I'm just wired for that shit. I have no idea.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

So that yeah, that's what you steer towards. You're you're into difficult, difficult.

SPEAKER_03 3:24

I mean, among other things. I mean, the reason UFO 50 I love so much is I I it's it's teaching me that I have actually even broader tastes than I thought I did, which is one of the things I love about it, because it's like things that I'm like, I don't know about that. I'll still run across things that I'm not a fan of, of course. But um uh it is true that if uh something with a bit of challenge the right kind of challenge, there are certain types of difficult that I'm not interested in. But um but yeah, yeah, no, I do. I like the game to feel like it's pushing back against me a little bit, uh uh motivating.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

I'm and and and I'm interested in when you sort of made that jump between playing games and then started playing around with building stuff, I you know.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

It's it's funny because I always thought of it as being a shift that happened in in undergrad in college where I would I was trying to do I I originally I tried to do a dual degree in mechanical engineering, and the closest thing Michigan State had to film, which was like this kind of video production. It was called telecommunications. I I had to learn about the history of the phone companies. Like I don't remember a goddamn thing other than Ma Bell and how much I do not care um about regulation in the whatever decade that was. Um then they changed the degree to I think digital media arts and tech, and they added a game program. Um anyway, uh I I eventually dropped mechanical engineering, was like, I'm gonna do film. And then in my I decided to to switch to, I was like, wait a second, um, maybe video games make the most sense uh as this sort of almost in-between, capturing the technical and the there was a lot going on there in that part of my life and just and like why that transition happened. Um, and that's when I applied to go to USC for the master's program, because it was just like, well, I'm not really like I spent the last year at Michigan at my undergrad picking up as many skills as I could that were uh game design specific, um, but then going to USC. Um But looking back, it's one of those things where in retrospect I was clearly had interest in making games from much ear from a much earlier age. Uh and I don't know what held my I I think I think it was the idea I think programming felt like both this intimidating thing and also I didn't think I was I would like it didn't it didn't have the pull for me um the way like using a camera did and um and since then I've you know I've been I started I started messing I was like wait a second no I love this too um um but yeah when we were kids oh my god we would there was um I've actually kind of done well I'll get to that in a second sorry structuring structuring telling telling kinds of uh historical uh thing it's not my strong suit because I keep having tangents pop off you can just spread all the stories around and then we'll just fly between them and and boom around as we go. When we were kids um there was this game I would make uh Kelsey and I would actually make games for each other but I would I would make this game for her called uh Superkid uh which I believe was a character she came up with and the first Superkid one was these little challenges where I would like bounce down the hallway as like an enemy but I would have a fixed pattern right it I wouldn't just run after her like tag and she would have to navigate that without getting touch. SuperKid 2, we had these like Legos for toddlers called duplos and I would make levels and then she would have a little joystick and move it and say boing to jump. And then I would move the character and it was essentially it was an adventure game at the time at a friend's house. I was playing Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine and also just getting into Zelda. And so it's essentially Indiana Jones mashed up with whatever I liked about the Zelda at the time and it was had these little platforming rules like oh you can only jump this far for this many blocks if you're going up versus over. You get items, solve puzzles, fight bosses. And I recorded it all down on grid paper. And so a couple of years ago I tried to recreate a few of the levels in Unity actually because I still have the grid paper for Kelsey's birthday. And that was kind of a fun interesting weird experience of um re-reenacting making a real video game out of this thing I did as a child. And then dabbled in RPG maker in middle school with some friends. So looking back I'm like oh yeah it's not that surprising right but we were so all in on the home movie thing.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

I was yeah and I was the I was kind of very very much the same actually as a kid.

SPEAKER_03 7:53

And it's just I went the home movie way you know the uh the games or uh yeah like but there was a lot of um it was mostly like text adventures in in DOS you know that my my dad showed me and so I would kind of like really drill and you know it's the sort of thing now you can just do through like some like um what is it twine or you know there's so many tools yeah but I think I had a friend in mine who who talked about using um what basic to like write simple little and just whenever I would hear somebody say that I'd be like what wait that's a thing you can do? And I would make games in Flash as well like oh that is how I learned how to program essentially in undergrad I started I was like well let's let's learn how to because I had Adobe the creative suite for for film stuff and I was just like I got a book how to make how to make games in flash um and started just um I had taken a programming one programming class for my engineering degree um and didn't think anything of it but it turns out that what you're doing with it makes all the difference when you're making stuff appear and move on screen suddenly this thing clicks and you're just like oh my god this is this is wizardry.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

I loved it but then I I bounced off the coding kind of and then and then I just double and then and then flash just became the tool for me to start making like movies and you know and then I continued doing that for the rest of my movies are great too I still there's things I I miss about having a physical camera right um and so and you know and you talk about you and Kelsey so is that a sort of common ground I mean it sounds like you all seems as though you get on as siblings my guess would be I I like to think so. Yeah I mean that was a common ground for you as kids right like you're playing games together you're making games for each other. Exactly we we um obviously like we were kids and siblings so it wasn't all you know um but yeah yeah we we we we both played video games right we both played those magic school bus games actually specifically um yeah we would make these games for each other um we eventually started making fake game magazines for each other um it was cute I'm sure you've spoken about it many a times but I want to use this as a springboard to get into uh other questions but the the the early iterations of what would become Outer Wilds and what you were sort of dabbling with the start to kind of build that out.

SPEAKER_03 10:20

Yeah no absolutely um I feel like I uh you think I'd be better at recounting this by now but it but it's such a it's such a scattered fragmented thing. Um the first thing that resembles anything adjacent to wilds was for so obviously so I went to USC for the master's program the three year master's program the final year you do two years and then the final year is the thesis project. And I think this this was my second year we had a class called world building and I don't remember the prompt for the assignment but I just sort of you know I was learning Unity um and just all of this stuff and for the for the assignment I was like oh what if I I want to try to make a spaceship that you can like physically get inside of walk around then get into the cockpit lift off. I got that working was just like oh neat um started making made some spherical planets essentially because I was just like oh like Mario Galaxy but in first person that'd be like bigger but bigger that that that that'd be cool. I just to see what it would be like I guess um just as sort of uh an exercise that is where the fun the funny thing is for that assignment I ended up with a planet called Brittle Hollow where its moon would bombard it with meteors and it would break apart there was no black hole and then there was this sort of foggy asteroid field with a lighthouse and mushrooms actually all those kind of Morrowind vibes and anglerfish uh that would have, you know I mean yeah yeah you you you know um uh and that and that was sort of it I think I wrote up a little thing it was more it was more like nautical like fishing themed hence the anglerfish the shift with this janky monstrosity that I made that had this big like hook on it um for fishing presumably um and yeah that that that was that and then we had thesis prep the next semester and I just started doing experiments because right it's thesis was this sort of like oh god what a whole year a project at the time a whole year long project seemed uh um with a team and everything seemed kind of crazy. So so yeah so they then they would give us prompts like we would have a list of prompts to pick off of and some of the projects were based on those prompts like the one prompt that I remember very well was I forget the exact phrasing but it was do something that evokes the uncertainty principle like the Heisenberg uncertainty principle which I made up this prototype where when you look around trees and this log cabin move when you're not looking. And that was a one-off that had nothing to do with what I thought my my thesis um I was gravitating towards doing some sort of space exploration game. I did some prototypes uh uh with that along that in nature a little you fly flew a little model rocket and exploded it and then had to get into the real the the real one which of course again yeah became the tutorial I did a little probe thing you threw out that had a video feed um and you threw it into this sort of like cloudy you were on the surface and there was this cloudy because you're like oh I want to see what it was already kind of itching the curiosity thing but I didn't really have the words for it yet. The thing that um and then there were a few others uh but I was struggling to kind of like find a focus and um one of my classmates Simon Wiscombe gave me which is I don't know I'm not gonna rank these but in terms of advice I've been given in my life like this this is like really up there which was uh why don't you make an emotional prototype? Like don't worry about systems, don't worry about mechanics, just create a little prototype that captures a feeling you want to evoke. And so I made this prototype where you're you're on a little planet actually because I had that from the world building class I made a little you're on a little planet um and you're at a you you roast a marshmallow over a campfire and you can kind of heal hear owls hooting in the trees and then in the distance the sun explodes and kind of like this it's more of a firework actually and it gradually expands and the planets in front of you kind of pop one by one and then eventually the wave hits you and and and that's the prototype. And of course and so obviously that's like that was pretty formative in terms of tone.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

And that that sort of very eloquently leads me to sort of what I'm interested in asking with like you know you had this I'm I'm curious about what I find with my work is like often the very earliest iteration of an idea compared to the finished product like it goes through so much you know like years and years of like development rebuilding rewriting re-editing re-shoot da da da da da all this stuff right and then I'm often surprised when I go back to my earliest notes how much the essence of what I've ended up with is kind of like it's sort of there on paper right but as it sounds like with you you're just tinkering around you're playing around I'm just curious about if you can sort of pinpoint what you felt and again that emotional prototyping right it's like why the fish like why the lighthouse and I'm not talking about trying to overtherapise or anything.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

No no I I know what you're getting at because I mean and and people like you know they ask like where did this stuff come from and and the unsatisfying answer is I don't totally know obviously but I I remember I mean I do remember that year even though it's a long long time ago now. Don't like to don't don't worry about it. I I was um that year just thinking about like kind of like just what happened that year um a couple a couple things that were definitely relevant. One is Dark Souls 1 came out and I played that and I was just like the hell is this?

SPEAKER_02 15:57

And relevant in the sense because I'm just like at this point talking, bringing up Dark Souls in a conversation about video games is just like oh but I think there's the context is important though that you were playing it when it came out right because playing Dark Souls when it comes out to play and I also was playing Skyward Sword.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

Right like like like the because I know I've talked about Skyward Sword's influence and Outer Wilds and how you know parts of Outer Wilds are a response to that and Dark Souls was at the time kind of an example of you you don't have to do this. You you could do some you can do some crazy you can get away with with with maybe more than you think. And in terms of like the sense of danger and the sense of in no way like like there it's like are there campfires in Outer Wilds because there are can't fires in Dark Souls like no I mean maybe maybe it's a subcontinent like the timeline works, right? Like I I don't think so though. I think that's because we've always been big into camping. I was also reading this book called Warped Passages um which was kind of my first kind of foray into like armchair physics about particle physics and just sort of this idea I mean I'm sure that's why my head was in the quantum you know when I saw Uncertainty principle I was like that one on the prompt list. Just the idea that like there's all these like layers to reality. Like I I'd heard about obviously I knew about like atoms and stuff, but I had never really seen a breakdown of like, oh, there are these big holes in our understanding here's why relativity doesn't really gel with the quantum here our attempt here's based on our current knowledge like some ideas of what might bridge the gap. And just sort of the mystery of it all really, really got me. And I've always really loved thinking about just the nature of reality like that really big picture stuff um has always had a really strong pull to me um even as like a kid. Like I remember just just being really interested in stuff like the Big Bang and black holes and like like this is I don't know how many black times black holes have shown up in personal projects since I was a child. It's a lot, right? It's like um so yeah yeah that that stuff was swirling around the fish I have no idea where the fish came from. It's funny because in the previous call with the Spanish students they were like so what what what are the f what where'd the fish come from? I was just like your guess is as good as mine. Well and I I think that's as good you know because then again it's not about trying to always dissect or understand but it's just I'm sorry I just thought of one more very relevant thing which was I had recently um driven through the American Southwest and gone through Chaco Canyon. And in Chaco Canyon there is this ancient petroglyph that they figured out is actually a depiction of an ancient supernova. And and something and so I'm like that that had to be swirling around because something about being in those ancient like those that type of ruin which you know the Nomai ruins are clearly based off of stuff like Mesa Verde. So it's just the idea of imagining those the people who lived there and and the huge expanse of time that's elapsed and then the expanse of time of how long how long ago before like the ruins are old but that star exploded way before they ever saw it. And then we're and just that sort of right that sort of deep deep history kind of feeling um yeah anywho.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

And then so was there you know because I asked Kelsey about this obviously Kelsey coming on board as a writer sort of further down the line but you know I I'm interested in you know because space you can represent it uh tonally in so many different ways. It could be like whimsy or awe or melancholy or you know and maybe out of wild a few of those things but yeah and my question to her was kind of like it it you know the game the the the the universe the the soda subs it feels like it gravitates to a sort of certain melancholy and there's a a reason towards that because it's like because of the things you know you're sort of finding out as you go along the way. But again do you feel like in the early prototyping stage when in theory you're just playing with mechanics but you talk about that emotional prototyping that the tone of the game was starting to shape itself consciously or unconsciously at that point?

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Yeah. I mean the emotional prototype I mean that that's that's the melancholy like that's sort of like yeah you know the I'm not even gonna try to put words to it. It's like I think it it it that prototype and and and then what it led to right that's the that's the point that's the fun thing about doing art you don't have you don't have to use words. You can do the thing and then people feel the thing. Kelsey's great at words I'm I'm I have my days but I'm I'm a little more hidden miss. That that that that captured one part of the tone and I don't know where that came from. Like like I know some of where that came from and what inspired it and some of it's just my own personal beliefs philosophy um some number of years prior um I'll get back to the space in a second I promise I just re the other thing that kind of feeds into it um we grew up Catholic um not not like strict Catholic or anything like very very like Genesis is a metaphor the big it doesn't the big the big bang still happened. Scientists of that's like yeah yeah yeah um you know they can they can coexist um but but I um I kind of went through a thing in undergrad like a lot of people do where I I essentially was I I lost my faith um and sort of so so in the early days of grad school I was definitely kind of still kind of working through the the aftershocks of that and so probably was that a big thing to go through though or was it kind of just like a tapering off philosophy? For me it was big it was no it was really it was it was it was a lot um really big worldview shift um like very very glad in retrospect to have done it and gone through that but it um yeah I know you Like because some people like I know people, right? We're just like, no, for me, for me it was a lot. Um, and so there was definitely some amount of working through kind of the big existential ideas of well, if not this, then what purpose is? I'm not, I am not, but I'm in no way saying that I made outer or started outer wilds to wrestle with these.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

Yeah, it's never that.

SPEAKER_03 22:22

It's just yeah, these are swirling. And that was a few years prior, but it's just like like it just made me think of of that. Um so with the space thing, the one thing um that was very intentional tonally was the idea that um portraying space as this hostile, dangerous place um that humans or Hearthians or whoever are you you shouldn't be in space, right? Um but the idea that you're gonna strap yourself into this rocket, this tin can, and go there anyway to try to explore, discover. Um that that vibe was important. And a lot of choices, um visually, sound design, gameplay mechanics were were trying to balance, like we weren't trying to make Kerbal Space Program, um, but we did want it to feel um real in the way that matters, right? The idea that um because at the time there just wasn't much like that. Um, because I'm obviously a a space, like I like space, space nerd. Uh one of my favorite films growing up, and still actually is uh Apollo 13. And um just couldn't think of a game. Like I've played I had played space games and I did research for my thesis. Um and it was just sort of like wow, there just aren't a lot that sort of do that. Like the the the the of the thrusters, the breathing of the suit, um you know, the the idea that you're going so very fast, but it doesn't feel like it. Um just uh just kind of all of it.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Um essentially essentially the NASA vibes, not like, you know, kind of arcadey or um 4X vibes or uh, you know, Elite or whatever, what what have you and just and again I it I think we've clarified like to not draw unnecessary parallels between what you were just talking about, about that whatever you went through with with that you know loss of faith, but without a wild. So kind of going on a little side tangent here. If it's something you're happy to talk about, that is. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just curious about what worry over what what what for you was coming out the other end of that? Like, I mean, I I don't know that we ever really, you know, because we're always iterating and building and changing our well view and all of this stuff, right? But I'm just curious what was on the other side of that journey that you went through.

SPEAKER_03 24:44

It's a good I mean it was sort of a reorganizing, it wasn't like a complete, you know. I mean, you're always I it's not it's not like everything completely changed. It was more, it was a lot of rebuilding the foundations. Because when you're raised believing in a certain like the right, even though we were very like, I was raised in a very like liberal catholic, like in the sense that like we were not like letter of the law, right? It wasn't like, oh yeah, like this is literally what happened. Um, it is still there are still just certain things, right? The idea that when you die, there is something that happens after um that you can just kind of rely on. The idea that there is this sort of grand purpose to things. Um and when you have to rebuild sort of like your model of what the world is, and you're like, oh, these, these, these pieces are gone. It's sort of like, how do you balance the Jenga tower? Um without the entire thing falling down, right? Um and so for me, oh man. I mean, it for it was hard not to, and still, I mean, you know, it's still still moments like this, less so I mean now. Um it's like on some level for it was like, oh, there the world is mean like right the like life in the world is meaningless inherently. Um great. How do we make peace with that? Um without just going full nihilism, right? Because I don't know. I like it's logically coherent and just like it's so boring.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

Yeah, it's like you can do it for a long weekend, but uh that's a rough way to be.

SPEAKER_03 26:26

Yeah. It's it's and I I don't know, because then eventually, I mean, I mean, really again, I don't I don't want to imply that Outer Wilds is me working through that because I'm like, I'm I'm like, but the but it is true that sort of like the ultimate my the the way I contributed, I guess, because I don't want to make it sound like I did everything either. Um Kelsey definitely had her own. I mean, everyone who worked on the narrative of the game added something because it means something different to everybody. Um I actually love it when I see people who play The End of Outer Wilds and they actually think it's uh they actually have a religious angle, right? They're like, they think that it's uh a spiritual. Uh that's great. That's great. Like it's not the point of it's not to be like nothing, there's nothing. Um, but it was, I think, the end. Sorry, I'm like my where where I came out the other side was kind of one of the themes of Outer Wilds, which is well, maybe there is no inherent meaning to any of this, and things will end and you will die, and that's kind of that. But isn't it more interesting to explore and learn things and you know, meet and talk to people and and try to have a nice time than just you know, not um, just that sort of like, well, even if it never amounts to anything over in terms of like time, right? Even if like ultimately, yep, heat death, like nothing nothing happens ever again if that's what the universe is gonna do. Um then well, is it still worth it to learn about it? Like, what's the point of like exploring and learning if it never ultimately amounts to anything? Um, was was was was was very was a conscious was a conscious theme.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

I think it's interesting when you talk and I think about you know that latter part when you say about exploring and learning and meeting people and connection. It's kind of like if you it doesn't surprise me that you know and I have my own feelings or interpretations of of the game when I'm playing it, and I'm and that's not me trying to interpret what I think. I it never even crossed my mind of that game. Like, oh, what does the creator want for me to think or feel? I just kind of like imprinted my own uh beliefs like uh onto it, you know, which is which is quite a sort of it's it's like you're supposed to do that. It's also a very self-centered thing to do in a good way, in the sense that it's like you know, it's like if I listen to I don't know, Mumford and Sons or something, I'm like I'm interpreting the lyrics that say they suit me, you know. Um and it kind of backs up my own narrative and it sort of makes me feel good about whatever my things are, or or sometimes games, you know, books and films can do the literal opposite, they can challenge everything. Um but I I felt like with Without a Wilds for me, it gave me it was like um there was some I was able to imprint some of my own sort of philosophies or faith or whatever um onto it in a very lovely, sort of whimsical by hard way. Um which is something very special that the game does, you know.

SPEAKER_03 29:29

Um I I I mean it is always just wild. I mean, you never really get used to people connecting with the thing that you worked on, and well and that's what I was gonna wanted to ask you about.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

I remember I years ago I went and saw Brace and Ellis doing a talk about like American psycho, right? And what came across from it was the the disparity between and he loved he loved people's love of the book um and their rep the what they thought it was about and all this stuff. But he loved the book for a very different reason, you know, and the book meant something very different to him than it did to the audience, you know. And that's been my experience with with even with say like making documentaries, like you have your experience of making it, and then the audience has the experience of engaging with it, and those two things will always be in some ways completely not totally separate, but you know, they're not gonna be a very good thing. It's a very different for sure, right?

SPEAKER_03 30:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. The parts that are the same, like when you feel like you've communicated something and it works, and you're like, oh, they get the thing. Like that's very cool. Yeah, that's where it's very cool to hear people have these completely different like, oh, I guess that that happens too, or like people take that away from it. Uh uh neat. I mean, you know, as long as it's not like the hard opposite of what we uh unless unless their takeaway is just like, huh, maybe we should uh uh blow up the sun. That's the idea.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

It's like that's not quite what I was getting at. But I guess what I'm curious about for you is like what it what what it's because you know, when you make a game like this that has such a huge success, you sort of get uh you know, you you sort of overwhelmed by by people's like responses and reactions to to this game, right? And I'm just curious how you find marrying that as a creator with your own feelings on the game that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 31:21

Oh man. Is that too big of a question? No, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna take little bites off of it. Um let me chew on it for a minute and see if it's uh see if my job um oh man, okay. So like it because yeah, it is over uh well I I mean part of it, it's it's been a minute, so it it's actually it's um I'm always curious. I'm like, I wonder how I'll feel about this in like 20 years when I've like real when I'm really properly like we are starting to be really remote. I'm I feel more removed from it now than I have. Like I said, this is the first day I've talked about outer wilds of people in in in uh quite a while, actually. Um, and there's something nice about that. I'm like, yeah, it is, you know, time to time to move on. Um happy to talk, by the way. I don't mean that.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

No, no, no, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 32:10

I I if it's not clear, I always I always get excited talking about games and design and and and even outer wilds. Um yeah, I don't know. I think the my relationship with the game now is I mean, it's still one whenever I hear someone say that they had a good experience with, I mean, it you know, it always makes me ham. I'm like, oh, like like it's lovely. It's just like this thing that every so often happens, and I'm just like, oh my god. Oh my god, people played our game, people like our butt but and I and I know I know I know people like the game and played the game, but it's still like uh it's still just very cool, um and it and a little overwhelming. Um as I think it's been a while once it's been long enough. I'm excited for when it's been long enough, and I can look at the game and be like, I barely remember like whoa, we did that, that's cool. Like, you know, and um and and and kind of see. Yeah, I don't know. I guess I don't really have an a good answer for this um because it is such a long, just kind of swirling. I mean, I'm very proud of it, obviously. Like, I'm I'm and I'm very grateful that we somehow had the circumstances, the resources, the time to do the the version we wanted to do, right? It's rare, I think, to get to do essentially your dream project and then hit the end, reach the end of it and not and feel like you know, you didn't really leave anything um on the table that you know what I mean. Like like no serious compromises were made. Um that's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

That's the special and and potentially quite.

SPEAKER_03 33:42

Yeah, I'm like even if it never happens again, I'm like, oh my god, we did it once. Holy shit.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

Umce is that's a that's a pretty high hit rate, honestly. Um to get some of that. So and then I guess then what I'm interested in, because I think I think what I'm sort of pointing to is it's like, you know, at some point you're like you're iter iterating, um, you know, and I'm guessing the first people that would have played around with your tests would have been like your fellow students, right? Yeah. So and then and then obviously down the line you build on it more and you're sort of testing, and then eventually you get people who want to come like, oh no, we we believe in this, we believe in you, we believe in the project. Do you sort of have an an idea of what you think the early principles of the game that you were building were that was really grabbing people that they saw?

SPEAKER_03 34:39

Yeah. What was special in it? I think well I do I do remember during thesis year, um, I remember what it was like before before people knew what the there was this period where nobody knew what the hell we were making. And I and I barely knew, right? Like I'm trying to figure it out. Like Lone and I worked on each other's thesis projects.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

And did you not know, but you instinctively knew to keep going?

SPEAKER_03 35:01

I mean I mean, on one on some level, there was no choice. Um it was like, well, I got I've got a team, we've gotta, we've gotta do the thing. On some level, it was just like, yep, just keep moving forward. Um there were elements once so the thing, the thing I was very, very like, oh my god, what is this? Um the thing that finally kind of clicked for me is was when I kind of had that the Wind Waker, right, inspired idea of, oh, I really like it in games. Again, this was the reason I was thinking about Wind Waker was because Skyward Sword. I was just like, what about Skyward Sword bugs me so much? What about something else like Wind Waker worked for me? And it was like, oh, I really love it when you when a character tells you about something that exists in the world, like a little, it tells you like a little story about it, makes you curious, you go check it out for yourself. That that is the that is like the bones, right? That is the skeleton of the narrative design in Outer Wilds. And once once that sort of epiphany happened, like, oh my God, you could kind of like make a game with that, focused on that. Um I remember, I remember like finally feeling somewhat confident that we had that there was something there, like being like, no, no, no, this this could work. Um, there's a lot of work to be done to make it work, but like that core conceit, I remember being reasonably confident that that would pay off. Um because the time loop, a lot of other stuff like the time loop were already there. Um I I remember because uh one of our professors, uh, this was on it was a thesis, but it was also an advanced game, which was more through because we had engineers from the Berturby school working on it as well. And one of those professors, one of the engineering professors, there was this moment where I forget what prototype, I forget the context, but he was just like, Oh, it's like missed. And I was like, Yes, more or less. Um I just remember that yeah, being a moment where I was like, ah, he started he like okay, okay, that's a useful way uh to frame it.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Um you know what part of the game for him would you know what it was This was so early. We might have eaten this thing.

SPEAKER_03 37:04

Yeah, we were probably showing him something like you learn a thing and then you go here. It really early days. Um so the pillars, but uh to uh uh event eventually answer your your question, I think, about kind of like the orienting factors we had early on. Um pretty early on, there were like roughly three pillars, and it was the world changing over time in these very large-scale ways. Um another pivotal moment that happened that that year was can the player affect that in any way? Um we had the idea for the Hourglass twins, um, the sand going back and forth. And I was just like, is this something the player can affect? Can you like push a switch and the sand flows the other way? Or is this like, nope, it goes from one to the other? And it seems obvious that it should just happen over the court, it's a time loop game, like of course, of course. Um but that decision being like, no, no, this is not something the player can affect, this just happens. That became a defining principle, the idea that the player is not allowed to change, to affect anything above a certain scale. Um, was kind of a core pillar, and it kind of went hand in hand to why have this time loop, um, why have these big things happening? And it's like the player learns to exist within the system, but they cannot change the system, which then, of course, kind of ties in thematically. Um, the other pillar was curiosity-motivated exploration, inspired by the Wind Waker stuff, being like, okay, this is a game where we want to see if the structure can work, so we're gonna get rid of everything else. We we want players to explore in this game because they're curious, not because they want a resource, not because they want to level up. So get rid of all that. We can't have anything that could possibly motivate people besides, hey, I wanna. I mean, it started out being we it it shifted more, it became more and more clear as it went on, like, oh, the narrative's the best way to do this. Um and then the third pillar was essentially just the camping in space, like like NASA, 1960s NASA meets uh backpacking and camping as a unifying principle, which doesn't sound like a pillar, but we were um doing concept art for the DLC, trying to come up with with like what should the vibe be. And I remember we were kind of having a little bit of trouble like honing on something that felt right until we essentially were like, okay, okay, what if we pulled this back and treated it more like what feels like a ghost story around a campfire? Um even it's even if it seems stupid, even if it's like, what if we just did the wood cabin thing again, but like in a different way? Like um, because Outer Wilds need and and the and the the the camping kind of cozy aesthetic is there to keep the game from ever feeling too sterile in a very because it is a sci-fi game in a lot of ways, but it's not supposed to, you don't want it to feel like a stereotypical sci-fi game in that particular sense.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

So just reiterate for me those three pillars. Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:01

So we have we have uh camping, camping in space, 1960s era NASA meets backpacking, you're roasting a marshmallow, but then you have your kind of Apollo-ass spaceship over here.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:11

And that and I I in that in my brain, in that I kind of include the like space is dangerous and you're fragile. Um to me, that's kind of like the the vibes of what the space exploration feels like. Um, we have the world changes over time due to large-scale natural systems that you have no control over. Yeah, and then three is the only reason the player should be motivated to explore in this game is out of curiosity. And so everything we do needs to inspire curiosity and reward curiosity.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

And so when you set up those pillars, what problems are you creating for yourself in doing that? I'm sure the answer is a lot. My God.

SPEAKER_03 40:52

Um Yeah. Um I mean, each of them, I mean, the first one was very was more helpful than anything, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:59

So that that that that one seems like it could almost sit over here and yeah, it's right because it it's nice.

SPEAKER_03 41:03

It's like the way the way I think about just my person, my creative process is I really struggle to know what until there are a few fixed points.

unknown 41:15

Right.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

I think of it as like putting pins in the board or whatever to like, and once a few points are pinned down, then it starts to be easier to figure out what else to add. Um, the the problem is I need to feel very, very confident in those fixed points to treat them as fixed. I have to be like, yeah, that's it. But once you have a few of them, then it's easier to be loosey-goosey with it. Um, and so I think those were, yeah, some of those. So all of those helped in a lot of right. It's like they they are they are constraints, but when you know, like, oh no, no, it has to be curiosity motivated, there's so much you just get to throw out. Um, same with the players not allowed to change systems. It does cause problems. There are mechanics we threw away because we were like, no, it's too far. Um, we can't do that. Um but it's also it had it for me, it like it makes it feel like it like the thing you were working on has a structure because it's so easy in hindsight to be like, like, even I have to work and remember like how uncertain everything felt during development, right? You don't really know what you're doing. And so having a few of those like load-bearing, like, no, these will stay the same unless something super catastrophic happens. Uh, it's it's very helpful. But obviously, then you have your work cut out for you to to deal with all of them.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

I guess you know, and it's interesting to say about because yes, you're creating challenges for yourself, but uh as you said, you're throwing out a bunch of things that just aren't optional anyway, so you don't really need to think about like, oh, would combat make this thing? How better is it?

SPEAKER_03 42:48

It's like well, that's exactly out the gate. You just don't even know it's just not even in your brain. You don't have to second guess it anymore. Um, which I think is why I because I'm a very second guessy kind of person. Um, I'm constantly, I'm never sure of anything. I'm always like waiting till the last possible minute to make a decision.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

Um That's a great that's a great approach though for knowing if that if that's your style, then if you can be uh uh have that, but at the same time be able to sort of like, you know, hang your hat on certain key principles when you feel good about them.

SPEAKER_03 43:21

The important thing is being able to find those those, oh, is it just climbing? Is it just a climbing metaphor? Just finding big holds and the places to put your pins.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Those things can be covered by a good climbing metaphor. And so then I guess I'm I'm interested in the curiosity like driven element then. And it's like, okay, well then how do you All right. So my original thing was like, well, what problems does that create? But then it's also then like, well, what are the solutions?

SPEAKER_03 43:46

Of those three things, that one I mean, let's be real, the time loop obviously causes problems that are very the time loop and this natural that causes problems that are very mechanical in nature and very like how do we not waste. players time and how we it but it also solves some things like we don't the save system in outer wilds is dirt simple right it's just we just have to record which ship logs do you have that's it like the game resets yeah like we don't we don't have like quick save I mean that'd be great but well no sorry quicks quick saves are an abomination and no game should ever have them um thank you one allowing you to pause the game stop come back later at the same point at which point your quick save is destroyed that's great yeah um that's just quality of life um just don't want to go on I don't want to go on record on a uh on a saying that I like quick saves like God.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

That's that's the that's the title save scummer.

SPEAKER_03 44:48

Well that's my problem I can't help it I I will save scum given the option and uh just save scum my way for every Larian game made it's actually why you know we for the longest time uh just while we're on the topic uh we had an option just well the the meditation option that you learn from Gabbro to skip to the next loop we just had that in the game like by default for a long time um because it makes sense right you're making a time loop game what if people just want to skip to the next loop that makes sense uh people people the instant players get into a slightly disadvantageous situation they're like nope reset yeah and they miss out on a lot of interesting emergent behavior it where would that what might have happened if they had tried to get out of it. Um and and that's why we we got rid of it and then we were like sorry maybe we can put it back in but in like a uh a sneaky kind of I well I don't want to get on the weeds I'm like it's probably a little too hidden but whatever. There's a reason. There's a reason why that's not really unlocked by default. Like we tried it.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

Yeah I'm sorry what the hell are we well we talk about the curiosity curiosity driven element and I guess that brings me to that that question about like Kelsey's you know involvement and you know how how her work as a writer I'm assuming played a big part in propelling players you know you've got all these incredible mechanics moving around you and then this other element that's going to propel people forward.

SPEAKER_03 46:14

No absolutely um yeah because all we really had before like because she came on um first semester I believe during thesis um and started we started working on uh the village the village was the first thing um I remember working on uh with her um and we had we were spinning oh yeah the first version of the village was quite bad um not not because of Kelsey just uh we man all the villagers were all like why the hell would you want to go to space like so so sarcastic very like when Kelsey mentioned this it's like if everyone around you is saying don't go to space you can you sort of don't want to go to space. Exactly exactly and we we kind of were expecting people to be curious before they were familiar before before for players to be to wonder about something elsewhere they need to understand and be I guess kind of bored with where they currently are. And that was just sort of a I guess rookie mistake realize like you know with the first pass being like, oh wait a second no one cares about this thing that crashed on the other side of the village um because this whole space, they've never seen this before in their lives. It's also aliens and also there's all sorts of crazy like no it makes a lot of sense. So you know I revised the whole thing with the it's law it's you know your newest member of the space program uh it's it's it's launch day go get the launch codes did the museum um and that's and that's sort of like yeah set the that worked really well and sort of paved the way for for future iterations. Um but yeah yeah no I mean Story Story was big I the previous I forget when but coming up with we had the once once the idea of like okay you're gonna find things that lead you to things was in place um we came up with this like rough structure of like okay there's gonna be like these four main curiosities uppercase C that answer a big question about the world and there's gonna be three clues you need to to find to learn that will let you access those. And the final game is more complicated but it does still kind of boil down to that. So we had that um had to come up with what the end of the game was going to be. As far as I can tell from my notes that that was a combination of me talking to another friend in the class like late one evening it sounds like my notes make it sound like we were high. We were not high um but that's where the eye of the universe and and and kind of the thing older than the universe comes from.

SPEAKER_02 48:40

I always think when people say like oh you must have been high to come about that it sort of slightly um waters down uh just the quality of like stone cold sober creativity which I think you can go way deeper than than you can just with a little bit of you know like whatever going on.

SPEAKER_03 48:56

You know yeah it's no no a hundred percent um oh because it again it's like well if you're making a game it's all about answering exploring to answer questions there has to be one the biggest question is the end of the game. What is that? And sort of this idea of like well there's something older than the universe great what what does that mean? And then between talking with my friend Jason and and Loan the idea of like uh yeah it's it's the thing that right that re that restarts the universe originally it was like two things you were going to combine and then later I realized that oh the quantum stuff makes more sense and we're not it's the weirdest thing in the game. We can't out weird that so it pretty much has to be anyway so we so we had we had like a loose idea we started coming up with like the history of like this ancient race comes and like escape pods um and then and then you know and then we working with Kelsey and she was really the one um that that um did I mean I mean I mean okay so the way we did story work especially at Mobius but even even back in the day um like me alone and Kelsey would do like a writer's room essentially um and just we had documents right kind of planning out um the routing and just like okay where should where should players learn this talking with Kelsey about how to communicate that um you know her coming up with all these characters and keeping track of where all these people are and their personalities and like all of us working together to figure out the world building and the history because but it was a very gradual organic the reason it's hard for me to talk about like and then we didn't you know it's just it's just this like that's that's what I'm picking up from so much of this is it and and that I think yeah when when creativity is that is that organic growing nature of it and it's it's that's that's the slightly paradoxical thing of of trying to look at things in hindsight because it's sometimes trying to sort of like make sense of something that that in itself is nonsensical a lot. Exactly like no no exactly because like I try I try not to be like like I don't want to like it's not like there aren't reasons for things and there wasn't a process. Um it's just uh in my experience uh yeah people do gravitate towards the tidy explanation right yeah and and the truth is it's sort of this chaotic swirl of I you keep these ideas swirling around for long enough they start to coalesce in interesting ways and then someone with with a better memory than I do remembers oh you remember two years ago when we talked about this I'm like yes I do now that's a great yeah what if we yeah and just the cross pollination is really cool.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

Um but I mean do you you know so you spent a lot of years with this game I mean was it has it during your you know and you were based on whatever age you were when you started it versus to when you finished it my assumption is like personally you would have been probably growing a lot and changing a lot as well I mean so do you I mean do you feel this game I think I sort of do know the answer but is to the prompt a thought about this game sort of has been good for you you know in terms of its presence in your life and this thing that you've sort of um been able to um build on and iterate on and that has been with you for such a long time. Yeah absolutely I mean and and a huge reason you know for that is just that you know that I got to work with a wonderful team on it right like the fact that just happened to be like Loan called me up when I was at Microsoft for like my seven month stint and like hey do you want to come back and work on these like mobile games with us at Mobius and then and then IGF happened during that and then it was just sort of like yeah the stars aligned um and yeah just ended up uh I mean ups I mean obviously ups and downs like it's not I'm not like oh was it perfect and nothing and it was smooth sailing like no no it was very stressful um but it overall had a lot of fun making it um it was you know just a really cool experience by and large even even the bad some of the bad parts not all of the bad parts some of those I could you know but um um yeah so I mean I mean it's definitely you know I obviously don't I mean the fact that it that it turned out well and actually you know was successful and and people people like it uh goes so of course I'm like yeah so no it was great it was great for me um in that sense but but no I don't feel um I don't think I ever got I never got like bored or tired of working it was a long time right but I don't think I ever like burnt out on it or anything like that um and then that just about the idea of the release of it and that response to to you seeing Honousk again some like and it sort of comes back to what we talked about before in my experience with making something there's the satisfaction and joy that I get from making it and then there's the satisfaction and joy from putting something out into the world and it being responded to and those two things actually sit quite separate and sometimes I've not enjoyed making something but I've really enjoyed how it's been received or I've really enjoyed making it you're totally right they are very they're different completely different flavors um although although I do find one retroactively affects the other for sure yes uh in my my um kind of yeah like I don't know I've got to be careful I'm like I'm like oh how well no I was like no we had a good time I I I have a lot of good memories working on that game.

SPEAKER_03 54:40

Um and then the response oh my god I had a thought there um because you were talking about right right right the feeling afterwards oh yeah I it's just it's so cool that we live in an era I think sometimes about how back in the day you'd really like I just imagine making a game in like the 80s or 90s. You spend you put all this effort into it you release it and and you know maybe you know somebody who played it or you read some you can't go online you can there's no Twitch you can't go watch people play your game and react to it and have the experience and kind of see what that's like um and it's just so cool. It's just so cool that we can do that now. That was so I mean I'm sure like you've like made the feeling of like screening something right like so good. And games don't quite have that um it's something right there's not like you can't you don't have that moment in the same way but it the closest thing really is like watching a streamer or something.

SPEAKER_02 55:39

I was gonna ask what is the closest possible thing where you sort of feel like you're you know for me it's when you're in a cinema because you and what's interesting with film is every every cinema has a different tone to it. Like the audience becomes this sort of collective hive mind sort of thing where certain like humorous moments are funnier depending on how the overall vibe of the audience is or some screens you won't get a single it feels uh like non-responsive audience you know and uh anyway that yeah yeah so you're right yeah that's that's the bit where you really feel connected uh with audience but I'm curious for you what is the the closest that you can feel to enjoying someone enjoying your work and because you were saying it was streaming.

SPEAKER_03 56:28

I the re I mean the reason I like I mean I used we will I mean especially when the game came out half of it we were watching just to look for bugs and problems to patch right so so it was still kind of work but um I do think my favorite because we we we've watched I mean I've probably spent more hours watching people play outer wilds than than like I mean Loan I'm sure is like Loan and I I I don't even know like if if anyone else has spent more time than we have watching people play Outer Wilds um please go outside. I don't know like there are yeah um but um play testing is different because they know you're there and so I do I do really like watching um streams and it's not the say I the the there's nothing that's like being in a theater but you know you've got the chat um you have you have a dynamic and no it's really I I love I love seeing people react to the big revelations seeing especially if that stuff works. And seeing and you know and they get they get emotional like you know like I'm not it's not like I'm creeping around the internet like clicking around to see if we made someone cry per se. But like it is no it's very it's very touching to see someone um like react to the work in that way. And it's just very cool that we that that's even a thing we can do.

SPEAKER_02 57:53

Yeah I don't know it's um it's just uh it's just just we have the technology we have the technology to make people cry um amongst many other things.

SPEAKER_03 58:08

It is it is I it is it is special isn't it to evoke a response you know I do like hearing people I mean I also do like people um seeing people on like you know the Reddit or whatever uh like theorycrafting whether like debating or like kind of the the arguments are like uh especially for like the DLC we would see some people actually take different sides on the core kind of question at hand and we were like we didn't expect that we were like well that's really interesting um so seeing some of that emergent stuff is really cool to see um also love hearing like oh I someone just you know that just like oh I played this like with my partner or I played this with my child or whatever and they and I was just like oh my god like I think you just pulled the exact same face that Kelsey did when yeah I'm sure I'm sure we're uh we are have probably yeah the mannerisms um what was I gonna say about that that that um and you know and obviously you have you know you have like a lovely fandom as well right like oh my god it's not like you've yeah I just you know yeah i I don't know yeah I don't know how that happened but um it's it's so good everyone's so so so uh I mean obviously like just careful about spoilers which uh it it's cool to see a fandom that is so conscious of other people's subjective experience in a way that doesn't feel too overbearing most of the time I I don't know I'm just like I don't know how this happened but it's cool what that's very very cool to see.

SPEAKER_02 59:45

I guess it's a little bit because that because because at least for me I think about well those those revelations those aha moments they're so evocative and that it's that kind of great form of people to have it's a very generous sort of like no I want you to have this experience this thing um and I'm sure at the same time that's what you're gonna say oh and I was gonna say I'm sure there's some amount of it that's just like I need someone else to talk about this way and that's what I was going to say so it's not just that but they're kind of try to be chill about it as well right which which which is where the the sort of the the the loveliness comes from it is funny because because because usually when you're watching someone play a game you're not quite that level of like some sometimes if I if I some of the streams I've seen and you can see you know people in the chat and it's very clear they're like experiencing what it's like to play test a game for the first time where they so desperately just want to like be like no please just do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:47

You know sometimes you just want to take the control just please please just zoom off into space. 10 degrees to your left please I I would I'll give anything just just look to the left um and obviously you can't you you when it's your job you eventually you know you but but um still painful but um but yeah seeing people experience that because they do not they're so they so want to not spoil it for their friends and they're just like being tortured. Like yes you understand now.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:16

You can join the inner fold. Yeah um and then I guess I'm just curious about what you know what like if if it's something you can talk about or like kind of what now or what you're kind of like wanting to iterate on build on or do with yourself or what's keeping you busy you know yeah no absolutely um I mean I Studio is making is making a new game um I don't I think I'm allowed to say that I I am not directing it.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:43

Um but I am working I'm obviously doing design and all sorts of shit on it. Um but because I am not directing it um I have had some time to go back to old kind of old old side projects um including including a film that I've been that uh Kelsey and I have been working on for uh uh well I don't have to say how long but it's been we were we were in undergrad it's not an HD it's that it's too old. Okay so there you go no it's it's a silly it's a silly side project. Um and it's just it's stuff like that where I'm like you know what it'd be good to go to go finish that but also thinking about other game you know ideas and kind of I don't know it's um it's been a few years now so I'm starting to feel the itch. But um really I just want like I don't know how how many more I despite the themes of Outer Wilds I'm like no I I would live a few more lifetimes to just be able to get through more some of these more it starts to be you know as you get older you start to be like oh I've got to like be selective with like which which ideas and uh things I per you pursue but then if you get too in your head about that then you stop. It's like no you got to have fun with it. You just kind of got to do what you find interesting at the time. I don't know. I don't know where that came from.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:05

I'm just like it's really interesting it's a really interesting point. I mean you know and I know you that's one of the things you have to do the arithmetic in your head of working out well I want not to be publicly saying well you know the reason I'm saying that is nothing I am working on right now outside of the the next big Mobius thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:22

None of it is going to be of much interest to anyone other than like I mean it sounds like you're playing right and and that that's yeah yeah I like like for instance I went back to that thing I did for Kelsey's birthday two years ago the old the Unity reenactment of this duplo game I made as a child and I just got pulled back into it and I'm like why am I working on this? Like what what am I who's gonna play this? I'm like this is is this just like a coding exercise um but something about it and I keep thinking like maybe there's something I can do with it. Maybe I can get all weird with it in a way that would make it we'll we'll see we'll see um because got some ideas there but it's certainly not going to be like the next big uh it's very much a um for fun sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:07

It sounds like a nice place to be I know that you know I love that iterating playing sort of process where things are floating around and I feel like something eventually kind of like builds up enough mass that it sort of pops down on my desk and I'm like, okay, I'm actually going to start yeah you know formalizing this this thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:29

Yeah very very much so it's I don't know it took me hilariously too long to realize that I do my best work when I am having fun. It doesn't have to be a fun thing it could be a serious thing but it's like if I'm not having fun thinking about it, working on it, it it's gonna you're right, it's just pulling teeth um but easier said than done because you know especially if it's your job you kind of have to you know it's that's the that's the the balancing act right? Yeah it's kind of I am the last person on earth to complain about having a creative job. I I lucked the fuck out. But um it is it is it is a yeah it is a balance you just some days you have to just trust that the th that the the idea will come if you just sort of um and then other days you right you just kind of you're like nope just got to keep plowing ahead um because something's gotta some just throw enough shit at the wall surely surely something right it's it's it's both.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:25

And I guess just and maybe so just my sort of last question to you because because and thank you so much for your time for for this I've absolutely loved this conversation. But that just made me think about you know when you're making something even if it's a test or playing around do you find that you're driven by like your desire to sort of like see if you can what you can put together or are you do you find yourself often thinking about the player um any player I don't mean like oh a a huge wide broad audience but maybe just like Kelsey or like a a friend like 'cause because uh uh I I think Different people approach that that thing differently, and some people are making something to sort of please themselves, some people are making something to please someone else. That's a slightly oversimplified way, but hopefully it's not a good idea. No, that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:11

And maybe that's what I'm feeling with with I think I do need there to be like an audience. Um, I I can't right, I would never make a game that no one sees but me, I don't think, unless it was like a prototype to just see like, is this possible? Like if it was if it was a an experiment, then I can, you know, I'm just like, oh let's let's let's see. Um no, I'm definitely thinking about because that's why I like video, that's why I like any artist, like media, that's why I wanted to be a filmmaker before. It's this idea of you make a thing and then you you share it with people and then kind of that see what that what they're ex- It's it's giving someone an experience, right? It's such a um I have no idea why that's why I like doing it so much. And I don't, this is not the place to unpack it. Um, but uh obviously I'm not alone many people, right? That's like a driving force for a lot of people. Um but it is true. I think I think with me, it's like there'll be something kind of rattling around in my brain. I'm definitely the kind of person, which again, this is common. Um, I definitely have to kind of my ideas are always things that I think I would like playing on some level.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:21

Right? It's like I am making the game for the parallel universe version of me that has no no knowledge of it. Um that person doesn't exist, so there, but but but I trust that there are other people who overlap enough with my tastes.