The Talent Behind Video Game Hair Design | Amandine Marest (Clair Obscur: Expedition 33)

SPEAKER_01 0:00

God of Faraniero, just the beard of Kratos itself tells a lot about like he is the father when like Mel you have like a lot of flyaway because she's like the rebel child for um cloud. There is like a contrast with his personality and his like air design The Last of Us as well. I do believe in air theory and I feel like it tells a lot about the character, about its personality and how you see it at first sight.

SPEAKER_03 0:32

Hi there, my name is Stephen Lake, and welcome to the Examined Game. Today I'm talking with Amandine Morest, hair and technical character artist for Claire Obscure Expedition 33. This is a conversation I've been very excited to have. I love this game. Sandfall Interactive basically hired a full-time hair and grooming artist to work on the game, and that is Amandine. You know, if video games are a form of escapism, then for me, Clare Obscure is a world where I get to go and have a full luscious head of hair for like 30, 40 hours. Um it's a beautiful game, and I just love the conversation I have with Amandine. We get into hair theory, we of course talk about Crowd's hair from Final Fantasy VII, as well as what you know you can impart and understand about a character just based on their hair. The traits that Gustave, Mael, the entire party in this game have are sort of reflected and represented in their hairstyles. I love this conversation. I'm so excited to share it with you. Please do subscribe if you enjoyed this. We've got some brilliant interviews already in the archive, and then some really good ones to come. Thank you very much. Um, I mean, I always love just getting a little bit of background on someone first and getting just hearing about like what your kind of early gaming experiences were.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

So I wasn't like lucky enough to have any uh computer or uh video game console. Well, I was lucky that I could play at my friend's house. That's when I just discovered video games uh with Freyman and uh and uh I think Spider-Man at that time of period and Final Fantasy as well, because I grew up playing Final Fantasy. And then uh my parents decided to finally boat uh computers, so I just go for so many hours playing Doofus. Um and then uh just um the kind of girl that was playing uh The Sims as well. I play a lot of video games. Uh so yes, since I'm a child, then um must say I grew up with uh playing Final Fantasy, Fire Emblem, and Zelda type of game.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

And and what sort of uh what what era of Final Fantasy was it? What was like the first one that you would have been playing?

SPEAKER_01 2:40

I think it was on PlayStation 1. Uh and I think it was uh it was uh Final Fantasy IX.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Okay, nice.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

My very first one.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

And you know, I want to come back to Final Fantasy obviously because you spoke, you know, but in the prep about, you know, obviously there's a lot of inspiration there with the the you know the hair work that they've done, you know, and um yeah. Um which you know it's it's like it's such a brilliant sort of example of like adding so much personality to characters, especially when you're dealing with sort of low resolution, you know, um of that era. But um okay, and that yeah, so The Sims was a big one. I mean I absolutely adored The Sims. Um so were you sort of like a bit of that into sort of RPG sort of world, or were you just kind of playing a lot of everything?

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Yeah, kind of because uh well I just I just go through through it bit uh with a resume, but uh of course there were like a different period of my life. Uh when I got my very first uh Nintendo console, uh that's when I discovered uh Fire Emblem uh license uh and Zelda as well. Uh but then uh my parents uh bought a computer that's when I discovered the Sims uh Doofus, so it was very very like uh I don't know, like uh I was um what can I say obsessed with uh game from period to period, and uh so yeah, I have my uh very long period of LPG uh which I uh I have uh always today. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

Do you um and some people don't know the answer to this question? I'm not even sure if I do for myself, but do you know what it is about video games that you sort of gravitated towards? You know, versus becoming I mean I you know obviously a lot of people also into books and movies and music, but um you know what it was that made you so dedicated to to gaming.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

I think it was uh I also loved to read and I think I just fell in love with video games because you actually play the story, you really incarnate the character, and I don't know, I felt more alive or I don't I I only have like cliche answer to be honest, but yeah, for me it was like every possibility because with the Sims you can just build your own family, you can uh do crazy stuff you won't do in real life, uh in a good way, of course. And uh for other video games uh you can follow just uh the story and appreciate it, uh so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:23

I mean uh yeah, same with me. I was I wasn't reading um at a young age, that was something that came later, but I really gravitated towards the games, you know, a lot a lot of point and click adventures, things like that, and then the likes of Final Fantasy, which you know once you get into it, there's a lot I mean you're inadvertently you're doing a lot of reading in video games anyway, right? But just such such incredible kind of character development. Um you know, I just think about like Final Fantasy VII and it feels like my first experience of like deep grief, you know, when you certain character like passes away and you can't bring them back, you know. Um I don't think that I'd realised that you could feel something so deeply before the diagonal with movies or games or or books, you know. Um and so then what was it did you did you have any inkling from an early age like oh this is something that I wanna work on?

SPEAKER_01 6:21

No, no, not not at all. Actually, it was um very much like uh hobby uh because I didn't realize at that time that you could that I I could have the opportunity to work in video games because for me it was only uh programming. Uh I was only seeing in a programming uh viewway. I don't know how to say it. Uh like I wasn't really um um I wasn't really uh I didn't realize that you could do the art of the the video games at that time. So yeah, for a long long time for me it was only OB and I just uh decided I could try it uh like in high school. But uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

And and what were you doing like when you say as a hobby, is it that were you just sort of playing around with different like art styles or were you very focused on sort of hair design um at that point? What was the sort of um the the work that you were putting in?

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Uh it was more like an exploration. Uh when uh when I first um do you mean when I first like tried 3D 3D stuff, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, I was just playing around and doing uh honestly a lot of tutos that I could find on YouTube, on YouTube, sorry, and it was uh environment actually I started with in 3D, uh like uh like the donuts uh tuto in Blender or like some other stuff. I was just playing around playing around. Uh I was drawing a lot at that time, but I'm bad at drawing, but I was doing a lot and uh I realized uh 3D works uh better for me, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 8:09

Um, and then what what at what point did you start gravitating towards sort of grooming and hair design work that you uh I think it was when I joined my uh my school uh so Artifix.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Uh I realized that to be honest, I wasn't the best at making uh 3D character, so I just kind of tried to find a way to uh step up from like uh other people because since I'm not the best, I have to try uh some things to to step up and uh and yeah, be the best in uh some things people uh are not very motivated. Uh because there is some task in 3D, you you just you're just like yeah, rigging is something that people don't uh think about when they go to um 3D school. So rigging is when you you put some bones on their characters so they can move and it's very uh technical uh stuff. Um in the soundfall it's Armand Le Cointre that is doing our rigging. So anyway, I was like searching a way to do some things that I will be best at, and that's when I discovered air and grooming. And uh I realized I had the passion to do it because many people uh just put some aircraft randomly, and uh there is uh I mean a lot of detail that make a hair looks good, even if I have a lot of things to learn still, but uh yeah, I just wanted to step out anyway.

SPEAKER_03 9:45

I mean it's obviously it worked out as a plan as a plan, right? Um like you made the you made the right decision. I mean I think hair is such a fascinating as I as I said when I reached out to you, right? It's like it's such an important aspect of of a character, and and it can tell you so much about them, but I don't think it's something we think about much. There are certain characters that are super iconic for their hair. I think about cloud, you know, like the original cloud, like and again, it's just he's just like points, but it's also well so memorable. Yeah. Um I'm trying to think of other good sort of hair uh well.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

I also fell in love with uh lightning uh hair in Final Fantasy XIII. Same, it's just uh some some design you'd never seen actually in real life or in video games, and I think Final Fantasy License is really good at making uh hair design.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

Sephiroth um has obviously got the perfect hair. I forget it's Final Fantasy X actually coming to mind, Aries. I mean, too, yeah, they've they just all have the most immaculate, beautiful hair, right? You know. Um and then so were you like looking at uh other games, you know, you mentioned like Red Dead Redemption and things like that. Were you sort of um just starting to find yourself paying a lot more attention to the sort of hair design that was going on in video games and like oh what it's communicating about a player character?

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Actually, I it was more in uh tech part when I was uh because I feel uh Red Redemption air design uh tend to be more realistic. So I just realized I was obsessed with uh how it looks, how the shader looks, uh how it works uh for the physics how the air is moving, how it um uh how it works with the the lights and everything. So I I am still obsessed with it. Uh so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:55

Um and so then you're doing that out of school. Um what is the what are the steps that are taken between that you sort of you know becoming employed and doing this professionally?

SPEAKER_01 12:11

So I um I worked a lot uh on my last uh year of study on uh grooming uh because I realized that uh actually I like it to do air, uh I like it the way you put so much detail, uh so much uh flyaway, like to make the air looks good from okay, it works really well in video games. So yeah, and just uh I just focus on that, and uh luckily uh on my um uh sorry on my jury. Uh do you how do you say jury?

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Is is it jury in uh my uh uh yeah, I saw you like your portfolio, your sort of um yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

So uh luckily uh Sotfall was here for our like portfolio journey and uh they present us uh uh early uh vision of uh Expedition 33. And well, since I am a huge fan of Final Fantasy, I just fell in love with the gameplay, so I was like, okay, I want to work there because I know I am the target audience of that kind of game, and also uh they didn't have any air or gum artists, but of course, in many companies you don't have uh air or gum artist because it's the character artist that is making like air uh outfits, uh 3D model of all the characters. But uh well Alan, our lead character, doesn't really like to do the air because uh well for for him it's not very that interesting. And I try to well step up from like other students and say, Hey, I could make hair for you guys. And so yeah, it's honestly it's just luck. I was there at the right time, and uh so I have like one year of uh of contract, and uh since then it's been for four years that I'm working at Sentrol, and I'm very happy.

SPEAKER_03 14:10

Uh I mean did you because you uh yeah, I guess there's there's the luck element, but there was also I guess your willingness to like put yourself forward and like to have the kind of the some level of confidence or self-belief that it's like oh I could actually like be a value add to this.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Oh yeah, yeah, of course, of course. It's not only luck, it's of course a bit of skills, yeah, yeah, yeah. But uh yeah, I've I've it's just that uh yeah, I feel I w I I just feel I am so lucky to be honest. So this is just something that I repeat uh every time, but uh I know yes I uh well I put a lot of work uh for making uh air, so I guess it pays out.

SPEAKER_03 14:56

You know that that obviously brings me to like to to to the game, right? You know, to to Claire Obscure and I mean the reason why I sort of thought like I was I was thinking about the game and the characters. I don't know that I've ever played a game that had me fall in love with the characters so quickly, right? Wow. Um in the sense that you um you start off with Gustave and Mael, right, on the rooftop. And I was with them like out the gate, and I was thinking there are so many elements to this opening moment that is working in favor of of getting me to buy into these characters, you know, it's it's like it's the environment, it's the the the lighting, it's the music, it's the sound design, it's the voice acting, it's the character build, but then and then I was like, I just I noticed the hair, you know, and I was like, there is so much personality um in each one of their sort of hairstyles, um, and maybe a little bit of hair envy as well, as someone who sort of has the hairstyle of like Trevor from Grand Theft Auto. Um I was sort of like looking at Christmas like thick, thick head of hair and thinking, gosh, it's just just amazing. But I guess I guess like what's my question? Like, I would love to hear about what was in place for these characters when you came on board and what you started to really bring to the table to sort of elevate what you know what they were gonna have going for them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

So, first of all, thank you so much for pointing out uh just realize that the air makes a difference when you when you play the game. It's I am very happy to hear that because I feel like the character uh it's just one block, you know, like you don't really focus on the on the beer or the air. So thank you for saying that. And uh so when I uh arrive at uh at Sandfall uh they uh have some uh some air that Alan did and also I think one air pack they bought at that time. Uh so it was uh only uh Gustave and Lunet that had hair and also sorry uh also Bael. And I just well I kind of like experienced a lot of uh it was a lot of RED at first uh because well of course I was still uh a student like uh past uh two two months ago, so it was uh really into okay I gotta prove that uh I can step up uh the air they already had. And I guess I just uh I just make some air and what works uh a lot in uh other production for us it was redoing stuff. I mean to be honest, like uh Gustave had like three or four air version uh because we didn't want to stick to okay, we did Gustave Air, let's let's go for another character because like one year uh later uh my skills approved. Uh I knew I can I could do better and we decided okay we are going to redo the character and uh we did that for the 3D model itself. Like uh I think Gustave had three or four versions. The very first version he got glasses with uh very skinny face, and uh we wanted him to have a very more warm uh look. So we redo that because with the glasses it was too severe, and since you have uh Lune which is like a very severe character as well, it didn't like match the two personality. So what works a lot at Soundfall it's like yeah, we don't stick to one uh design, we just redo it if we don't feel like uh it works. Because anyway, it's gonna end up in customization, so it's not gonna be something you just uh throw out in the bin. So yeah, I'm I'm thinking I'm very lucky as well because uh I have the opportunity I had sorry the opportunity, sorry it's serious. Let's just redo it. I had the opportunity to put a lot of time in uh in air. Like uh you have three days to do the air. If I want to put two days more to do some details, uh they just saw that it works for me. And uh I think for all the games uh you can see that uh we had the opportunity to go like from start to to the very happy um results we were expecting because you know sometimes in the industry you are um you're not uh you're frustrated you're frustrated because you didn't go uh as far as you would want to go for like uh the asset itself. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:00

Sorry, I think I I go like uh from uh that's that's literally the whole point of a when well that's that's a good outcome for a question. If you start pinging around all different places. Well that makes me wonder because like you know, it's it's it's it's like uh you know the game has a finite budget, right? There were there were people on the team that obviously made a decision that it was worth the game's time and worth your time and to to develop this this part of the characters, right? Like was was was I'm just curious about the leeway that you were given and who who was sort of like pushing to sort of say like no, we want Amandine to you know have the time that that she needs to to get get these these results, or was it just something that just you didn't you know you just came in and each day they just sort of let you keep on working on the hair and then you just sort of kept on going with it?

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yeah, well I think it yeah, it just came naturally uh because uh what works a lot at Sandfall is the way they trust us. Uh and so yeah, I think like some haircut I just I just go uh and I just take two days to make them, and sometimes I take more I take more days, like five days, and it's okay with it. So yeah, I don't know, it just came naturally. Of course, we we stick to um a production sheet. So it was the very first year of um my work that uh it was like an exploration of how many time uh I could do some assets and exploration. Why right now uh with my experience I know that this haircut I have I know I have like uh three days to make it, I know I have uh five days to make it, so yeah. Just like it was naturally, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 21:54

And so again, coming back to like Gustave, like was his you you was sort of saying his kind of like character design was evolving alongside the hair the hair design right and and was that a case of um because he's so I don't know great you know and he is warm and he's he's sort of lovable and gentle and sort of courageous and all of these things and I think he wears those um he wears his attributes on his sleeve in that he looks like a sort of kind and and sort of gentle um man you know um I guess I'm wondering yeah how m how long that takes to kind of iterate on on that before you before you feel like okay I am looking at Gustav now I'm I I'm seeing him exactly as he is sort of supposed to be that is the hair that is the beard you know that's a good question I think that's it's uh really more of a a team uh a team um uh decision uh it's more like of a team decision because uh well sometimes we do some things and uh Guillaume uh would say yeah no it doesn't look like uh Gustave we we can we can do better so we just iterate that and what makes me feel like it was more Gustave uh it was more when I just picked some references it wasn't really in the the process in the process sorry it was more when I just took some references and I was like oh yeah actually that could work so well and uh and I think it's a lot of feedback uh having a lot of feedback helps a lot uh in the process because everyone uh kind of like uh know Gustave uh in the script or uh because you you want like this can character and everyone is putting some feedback and at the end I think you have a great result because uh there is so much love in Gustave I mean it's it's my baby so yeah I mean if me as a player can fall in love with him I can't even imagine what it must be like to be be one of the the the many sort of contributing people to sort of building out that that yeah Alan took a lot like yeah like so much effort and love in making uh Gustave face to be honest like uh I'm curious then to you know I mean I don't I don't want to take up all the time but but I'd love to hear again about Mael and Lune and Ciel and you know again how the how you iterated on on each of them as as well.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

I mean I think yeah uh so actually for like the so just for the air because I just make the hair uh we uh have some uh concept art from Nicola our uh creative uh artistic artistic director sorry and uh sometimes you you kind of guess what he wants with like some you know because sometimes the concept is very like um there is like not so much detail that you would want uh with a concept so you end up like uh discuss about it with the team it's really again like uh a team view you just discussed like okay what do you want I take some references or we tend we take some actor or actress uh model or even people on social media as references and we're like okay it kind of like it feels like the mood of like male oh I like this one okay it feels like Sophie so I'm gonna take these references and uh and uh yeah I guess it's just uh a lot of discussion as well.

SPEAKER_03 25:51

And was it say with male was that was that and again speaking for for your partner but also obviously for the wider team was was was she someone that took quite a lot of iteration to get right? Because I feel like again my impression of her so much of you meet her with Gustave right so so so much about her is her dynamic and relationship alongside him.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

You know that there's this sort of like little sister slash very close sort of friend but not literally little sister but that that's the dynamic right of and and I guess does this does when when when each character is almost like can works standalone in and of themselves but they are also counterparts to each other right so are you sort of having to think about and again I might be asking you something that applies to other people on the team but I guess curious who you're input on this that you're thinking about okay well how does how do these two characters feel when they're sort of stood next to each other you know and you've got Gustave looking this way and Mael looking this way is that a sort of a consideration it is uh we tend to look a lot at uh cinematic and uh we did some voice acting at first so I did some voice acting for Mael which is very bad uh anyway but uh we tend to look a lot at uh at cinematic and uh and see how the two characters works exactly but for Mael which is fun is that she didn't had any major change in terms of uh hair design it was always the ponytail Mael it was always the ponytail when I just arrived at Sandfall I only did like a a rework but it was only like a tech rework with a new shadow new texture um a lot of like more volume but it was always the ponytail and Alan did uh a lot of rework for the face because uh she had so many like yeah so many iteration uh because she well she we didn't feel like it was uh male and so the hair was there and it was a case of of of working the the the the the the rest of her until and and do you think do you do you know do does the team just do you just know when you've you've got it I can't remember that's that's so hard because I feel like we do uh well it's it's so different uh it's so different with uh every character because uh for example Lune it was uh it was very easy to to do Lune like uh she had like a fake two version Ciel it was it was like it was something special because she had so many versions as well so many iterations uh like um first she had like very uh long hair uh we tend to have something more curly it didn't work for the hair design but also for the faces uh and I just feel like we try something and sometimes we point out that okay this like this nose works this mouth works okay this kind of like uh the bang doesn't switch cell uh okay let's just add a button and uh for only for like the hair base character uh like not for the customization and for like the face it was a lot of uh RD uh research and development uh we just try we do some iteration and sometimes uh uh it uh work uh at the first uh try and sometimes you have to to do it like uh for like five or six iterations sometimes so yeah it's really like feedback again like Guillaume uh our uh creative director uh gives some feedback like yeah no let's add let's add some volume okay it actually it didn't work let's just forget that and uh I I can't remember really when we realized that okay this iteration is good but I think it was when everyone was kinda happy uh with it I guess and sorry uh and I guess just to cover Verso as well if there's anything to say um Verso was more easy because uh he is one of the last uh main character we did in 3D so our uh skills were uh well better at that time as well so he had only like two iterations and it was always uh this air design for Verso it was uh this uh very charming uh hair like he stepped out from a air salon like I know every kiter just uh look like they step out from the air salon and I really like it.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

I mean they do but at the same time you know there's they've still got a lot of flyaways and sort of like you know they it's not like Final Fantasy immaculate hair and I think that's something I mean I this is just me going a little rabbit holy in sort of hair theory but like say Cloud for example he's his character is someone who sort of has this this impression he doesn't really care what you think he's just standalone he's like whatever but he he just has the most immaculate hair in the world right and I there's there's perhaps just a slight clash there you know because he's like he's someone who must he for for to have hair like that you'd have to get up very early in the morning and spend quite a lot of time on it. But you know with with with with Mael or Gustave although their hair is like is so brilliant it still has that slight vibe that she's you know Mael's just like quickly sort of put it in a ponytail and it just happens to be you know she's just got good hair jeans. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Yeah I think so but yeah actually what you said about like flyaway is something that I um I put a lot of detail in the like putting some flyaway in character because for example Sophie you don't want her to have a lot of like flyaway because uh I mean obviously she's not going for the expedition so she she tends to have this very like she she just had like a brushing when like Mel you have like a lot of flyaway because she's like the rubble child and uh I think it's yeah it's important and thank you for pointing out actually uh well that's and and yeah so I guess you know again we speak in in terms of a little bit the prep talking about that idea of sort of hair theory you know and like what um what the hair of a character is saying about them um and maybe we've covered this but I guess e even that i is a really good example the difference between Sophie and Mael you know I I I never would have sort of um I consciously sort of picked up on that.

SPEAKER_03 32:55

Yeah of course And actually in some ways all of them I guess uh maybe Lune probably has the s the most sort of tame hair out of the lot um but it's still got a it's still very characterful. I guess I'm just thinking about that point about the ones that go off on the expedition you know they've all got their own sort of slight wildness in in their hair. Yeah kind of I but yeah I feel like uh you you ask that question but I agree I feel like uh I do believe in air theory and I feel like it tells a lot about the character about its personality and how you see it at first sight uh because well uh as you said like for um cloud there is like a contrast with uh his person his personality and this like very like like air design that just depart from everything so yeah and then just you know with the um the sort of collectible hair that you can get in the game how does that work for you because I I I love sort of being able to unlock those collectibles but I will never change their hairstyle because I I always find it like I feel like the hair that that I begin with is their their hair and it's nice to have different iterations but um are you sort of when you're designing those other styles you just thinking okay I'm just gonna go for it or is there still um a lot of like are you still trying your best to kind of ground it in what what that character you know how they would themselves choose to style their hair?

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Yes uh we uh did a lot of like uh research and for example there is a lot of haircuts when I'm like oh it's kind of sweet smell so well like the the double bread uh I wanted more like a a child uh version of my because I feel like she didn't get uh well she didn't have a simple childhood so the Air Custo I feel like it's more like what she would deserve in terms of like a childhood but um well it depends sometimes uh we we try to stick to the character personality and sometimes I'm just lucky that oh oh I want to do that air design can I do it I feel like I'm gonna have so much fun with it and oh yeah good the sweet sell so much and uh okay let's go you can you can do it and uh yeah it it really depends and uh uh I feel like it's at the end of the production when I had more time to do uh customization it was just me had having fun and I'm so happy with that like I think there is like three or four haircut it was just me having fun for like their source draft the double bun with hair with a lot of jewel I just like yeah can I do a haircut with like a lot of jewel like magic stuff like she's a fairy and uh they just yeah let's let's go let's go I love that I love that and that idea with my air like that idea of giving her the hair that she was never never able to yeah have as a child because of because of those those difficulties you know and it's almost sort of like um there's a lot of joy in that I guess um yeah and and I mean it and and it doesn't necessarily just have to like be specific to hair this question but I guess I'm curious and maybe we can go through each character and if you have an answer for this but like you know what are the what are the sort of traits or things that you would want people to sort of pick up about who these each of these individual characters are you know on that sort of first impression because again if you think like you're you're just a first impression is almost always a visual one right so you're gonna go on the their build their clothes and their hair their hair um are there sort of traits that you think each one of them have that you would love to sort of be sort of communicated through through their style for some character I think it's obvious the answer I will I will give you for Gustem it's the kindness because he's like a big brother he's like this yeah he's like this sweet sweet person like for Verso obviously it's like being mysterious be mysterious sorry is this kind of like uh like the the the guy in the dark so you want him to have like uh a lot of hair like uh for yeah for Mel I don't know for Mel uh since our design was a set uh when I arrived I didn't really think about it because it was always Mel with her ponytail and I think it fits her so well. For uh Ciel it was really hard because she had so many variations but I think uh we want this like joyful person for Ciel. She has so many like messy air she just like she's just giving the vibe and for Lune it's more strict. She had for a very first variation of air for for a first iteration sorry she had like a bun because she is a severe person but we want to like for a cloud we want to add more contrast and we didn't want to look uh we didn't want Lunet to look severe at first sight. So yeah I'm sorry like the answer is not perfect.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

I didn't really think about it but that that that that's really interesting and it is in I mean it's I think about again the first impressions I get from them and I feel like you know they they look a bit like different some people that I know in real life that I can sort of slightly project onto that you know you know like you say about CL and that slightly slightly messy um um look you know um and I guess just from a general perspective and this is something I would obviously ask of anyone that that's worked on this game like did you have any idea of the response that you were going to be getting when I mean I'm guessing you knew that you were working on something pretty special although this was your first it is my first game yeah uh which is a pretty good hit rate right that's a that's a one for one I get right in terms of like working on great games. But um did you yeah did you have any idea of what the response was gonna be and what was that anticipation like of putting your work um out there into the world?

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Honestly when we when we said we didn't expect that uh amount of like uh of player we were not lying like for real uh I think I realized that okay maybe it's going to to work uh when we uh post the very first trailer and the response was actually very great we had so many views on our YouTube channel that's when I was like okay maybe maybe it's going to work but honestly from the very beginning we thought it's going to be a very niche game uh for me it was only a Persona 5 player that are going to play our game because people tend to uh dislike turn based uh turn based uh game so yeah I I was like the target audience so maybe I didn't see it because I I I knew that uh people like me would definitely love that game but I think I am quite a niche uh player so yeah we definitely weren't expecting that amount of of love of player of everything I think we are so lucky to have this um this great community because we uh we receive so many uh letters from fans that we almost read all of them so many photos of cosplay uh so many love and yeah I I remember uh making jokes at Alan like yeah just imagine someone is making a fan art of Verseau and we end up having like so many fan arts and I just remember also having a discussion with Florian like oh my god do you realize if you could do like a concert in Montpellier and is making right now like European tour so it's just it's just crazy because uh we we have like we just it's so many good opportunities for us and uh yes so many joy for the past uh year for us it's crazy I guess I guess with the the the cosplay are you seeing people um that they're styling their hair you know mimicking what what you've designed right that's like people because there is some honestly some hair design that's you kind of like you cheat a bit so it works in 3D but in real life you're like yeah maybe maybe the bread of Lune is not not going to you know to look uh this way and people just like they find a way to cheat in real life and I'm like oh my god oh my god they did it so yeah and a lot of effort in like outfit because we didn't talk a lot about it but uh Alan's work uh on outfit is like amazing I think to to tell a lot about the personality as well so for the cosplay the amount of work in uh making the outfit is amazing. I've gotten to to do a little bit of work with some different um you know uh Valor and and and League of Legend you know cosplay artists and um the the what how they achieve what they achieve is is is pretty um incredible you know with the the the sort of hacks to sort of um personify in real life a sort of 3D rendered you know or 2D rendered uh character is is pretty special in and of itself um do you get did you do you have people talk about the hair much in terms of um or is it people mainly just speaking about the overall because again the hair in in and of itself is is attached to an a fully fleshed out character right so um actually uh no not really because uh a lot of like uh people that are making game in the industry as you said are 3D characters so it's just some things that doesn't really step up from uh the character we don't tend to talk a lot about the air I think uh so I am very lucky to have like uh this amount of like uh responsibility uh in my company like uh very I thank you uh but yeah I mean again I I know it's it's it really is um it's such a team effort but but so much about like I say in that first moment on the rooftop you know so much about what what I was able to start to buy in because I

SPEAKER_03 44:00

I think you know with with with character development you do have to be efficient, right? You you don't want to do just waste a players' time with so much like exposition um and and too much dialogue. Um the more that you can communicate, I think, the the the sense of a character at a glance, um the the better, right? And like I said, on that on that rooftop, I just sort of knew out the gate that I was gonna sort of um find these these two characters, specifically those two, you know, Gustave and Mael, um very, very special to spend some time with.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

Yeah, I agree, but well it's I think it's also thanks to like the cinematic work with like uh you know the the camera, uh the way Gustave uh also like uh you said as well the voice acting, I think works so well, like to be honest. Uh I think there is so many like detail that make the character being well Gustave, you know.

SPEAKER_03 45:01

I think what my my dream would be to just like if I could go and just just interview every single sort of person on the table, like and just focus on that rooftop and last like what it what is every element, the music, you know, the the the what are what is every single element that's coming together to sort of um have you be won over by these these characters because because I think um people really are endeared to them, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Um I mean is uh out of that ensemble is there anyone that's your absolute favorite that you're just kind of like that you've just got a a specific sort of sweet spot in your heart for for I well I I just love Gustave, but I think uh well for me it's uh it's odd because I really really love Mael because she had uh the she she had such a journey, you know, but uh for me in term of like air design and uh what I feel uh in the production is Monaco actually because Monaco is that crazy character that just uh had some fresh air. So yeah, I think for me it's Monaco. Really love Monco, really love uh Rich Kibble uh voice acting on Monaco, and he's such a sweet person in real life, so yeah, I just uh just love Monaco.

SPEAKER_03 46:24

Yeah, we didn't even get into Monaco. I mean, did you have a hand in the the the what was your sort of part in sort of helping again?

SPEAKER_01 46:31

Was that like with Mael where the concept art was pretty much speaking to how yeah um it's thanks to to uh Nicola like uh I just have uh Monaco's concept and uh for Monaco's I only had one iteration because the concept was just perfect and uh I just stick to the concept.

SPEAKER_03 46:53

I mean Monaco that just is hair, right? I mean that that that's literally a character that is it's like yeah, they're they are just hair, you know, other than you know they've got the uh the the the wood, yeah. Yeah the wood. Um Monaco is such a great um add-on, and and then the obviously the dynamic between him and Verso, you know, is um is is is it it it's nice because obviously you get to get a sense of Verso's personality with these old old friends, you know, that he's known for a long time. Um and I guess and maybe we covered this, but I'm just interested about and obviously you would have been going off of the the the concept art for a lot of this, but there would there was obviously a decision that that um because you're you're dealing in a game that is very sort of JRPG inspired, but that these characters are not given like this immaculate perfect sort of um straight hair, or maybe just a little bit of a a a wave, you know, if if you're lucky, like some like um you know Aries or whatever from Final Fantasy. So I I wonder if you have anything to say to that about the just the overall decision making about how these characters wanted to be presented, because yes, their hair is still kind of perfect, but it's not immaculate, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Uh I well I think that it's really thanks to Nicolas uh concept uh because uh he's making so like so so many like I don't know like detail in like every part of the character. So even for the air, I had so many like waves and like for Alicia concepts, like for example, you have this very uh stylish uh hair on the around her face.

SPEAKER_03 48:46

With who you sorry?

SPEAKER_01 48:48

Uh Alicia. Um I f I hope like uh having this uh like kind of like fantasy haircut is uh a direction uh artistic direction of like my my idea, my uh my own uh my own way of uh seeing hair. So I'm hoping that uh this is some things I add on to the company. But uh yeah, I feel like uh the concept itself uh talks a lot about the character.

SPEAKER_03 49:20

And actually, just with with Alicia in mind, was there a different sort of school of thought when you were uh working on the sort of supposed, you know, the kind of the the the antagonists, the villains of the game. Um how they're well there's a couple of things there because they they've also obviously been been around a lot longer as well, right? But um that idea of counterparts or contrasting against characters, what was the thinking when you were designing um for for them?

SPEAKER_01 49:50

Well, for many characters I think it's like uh Guillaume's vision. So yeah, it's really uh them explaining to me, okay, so uh this is Alicia, we're uh looking for references again, and uh yeah, it's like uh it's really a teamwork to be honest. Like uh I have a lot of feedback and uh it's really me uh going through Guillaume's vision and Alan and Nicola's vision as well. So yeah, I just uh it's just my little hand that are making uh alive their ID to be honest.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

And what do you think that the I mean and again this isn't necessarily specific to to the to the hair, but I'm just curious about your interpretation of it about you know and and with the with the the creative team, you know. How did how did um you know how did you all want how did they want like the likes of Wenwa Renoir to contrast against um say Gustave, you know, um in terms of their their presentation and how they came across. And maybe that's just I'm just interested in your take on that, even just as a player, let alone you know someone put on the the the game.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

Well, I f it's so hard to have this answer because I have like every Renoir's iteration in mind. Uh so I just can't remember when we really stick to that Renoir. Uh but I think it's really again like Alan's vision because he redo uh Renoir's uh like coat, like his coat is just something like had so much presence, like uh so yeah. I think it contrasts so well with like Gustav uh just with so many like detail again because I feel like Renoir's animation is very important how you you see him because he's like this straight straight uh guys. Uh also his the mock-up uh acting face work uh as well for uh making a contrast with uh this uh kinda Gustave face. So yeah, I I guess it's uh again it's a lot of little detail that making the whole character so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:07

I just think about what and again you know, but you find out just how much damage he can cause with with such little um motion or movement, you know, whereas you you know the the the ensemble team that you're you're playing as, you know, they're kind of relentless in their their their attacks and the the way that they fight, whereas there's just this like you know kind of all powerful, kind of um impossible to stop, relentless um nature to to to reno, you know, and he does it with such sort of um style as well.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_03 52:44

They all do everything with such style, you know.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

I mean they're a stylish bunch, you know, even when they're like I would love to do like a vogue uh vogue picture of like every character uh posing because yeah, like Renoir uh you just step up from like uh I don't know for like uh a vogue magazine or yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:05

Well it's a bit like it makes me think about you know when I would like watch the walking dead or whatever, and I was like, well these characters like they dress better than me and they're in like a post-apocalyptic, you know, zombie land, you know, and they still should have better trust sense than I do and and and this this lot, you know, when they're when they're in the um you know, in this world, just the way they but it doesn't break the immersion, that's what I love about it. And and I guess that's a sort of testament, right, to that again, those sort of the the the the JRPG origins, right? Where it's like everyone's gonna look great, everyone's gonna like have this incredible sort of style, you know, there's gonna be this brilliant sort of like diversity in like personalities and character, um, you know, and they're gonna, you know, they could have gone through the most horrific thing in the world, but they're still gonna sort of like carry themselves in this sort of you know, um yeah, I I agree.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

We like we don't need like uh explanation uh to this like uh yeah, of course, uh they have like fantastic uh clothes uh and everything, but uh yeah, it it just works in like fantasy world, and I really love uh it's what I love to be honest, uh, when playing the game.

SPEAKER_03 54:11

What your future-facing plans are with your work?

SPEAKER_01 54:15

Well, uh to be honest, I don't know. I just I feel so lucky to be able to do my uh my dream work. What well what I discovered was my dream work at school, uh because maybe I minimize it, but uh that was really like uh I just fell in love uh at uh making a groom. So uh I'm just so happy because for me it was I was going to start by making like maybe character and then like maybe like uh five uh five or ten years later I will make maybe air, so I'm just so happy to be able to make air design. And uh I just want to stick to this because it we actually prove uh like in the teamwork that it works like this way, like uh everything like in the character team works so well, like the team is so nice. Uh I'm just so happy to work with them and uh such lovely, lovely person at the company to be honest.

SPEAKER_03 55:17

Do you um are there other people in the industry that you've gotten to talk with and meet with that have such a sort of set role as as you do, you know, that are working on other games?

SPEAKER_01 55:28

Not that much to be honest, because I uh didn't have the opportunity to meet up that amount of people. Uh because with the big events, uh I just tend to uh meet like uh directors of like company, so I'm like, okay, so we start we start there. So actually, no, but I would love to meet up like some other groom artists because I think I do have a lot of uh learn about uh groom air because uh in 3D our uh work evolve uh from years to year because uh our software evolves, uh the engine itself evolves so you have more uh opportunity because you want to. I mean uh when making the game at the early stage of uh Expedition 33, we were thinking so much about the conic polycount, like we don't want to have a lot of uh polycant, uh we want optimized air, and at the end of the projection we realized that okay, okay, actually it's fine if we put uh bit more of polycount, so just the way that everything's evolve uh for us, uh we just tend to uh I don't know, like uh we are in LED all the time.

unknown 56:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 56:46

And then I guess I just I'd love to kind of like round off by talking a little bit more about video game hair. Some you know if if you have I I don't know if you specifically you know have favorites or what we've always talked a little bit about Final Fantasy, but just um characters or or that that you feel like you know are just that the design has obviously done a really good job of of of representing who they are through through their hairstyle.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

Well, I just come in what comes in my mind is like God of I think like Kratos, just the beard of Kratos itself tells tells a lot about like his father, uh like he's a father and everything, and just technically God of war Ragnarok in terms of air and fur was like a lot of inspiration. Like I just took uh Wolf uh references for uh Monaco's uh my Monaco's references work. So yeah, like God of Aranyarok, The Last of Us as well.

SPEAKER_03 57:47

Um in The Last of Us, like both Joel Ellie everyone, Joel.

SPEAKER_01 57:53

Joel, like Joel was uh one of the references I took for Gustav's air and Beard.

SPEAKER_02 58:00

I can still see that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

I tend to talk more of like real life uh references, of course, because you don't want to take video game references uh because you want to look more of a realistic uh like uh references, sorry. Uh but yeah, a Joel was one of my uh references for uh Gustave.

SPEAKER_03 58:23

And was that again just to drill into Joel Joel a bit there? Was that because Joel has this sort of you know it's obviously a little shorter, right? Um and he he has a he has uh quite a conservative look about him. But again, he's he's a very uh kind well d depending on who he's yeah interacting with. Yeah. Um man, you know, and again there's a sort of I don't you know, and that's something that I suppose you get to find well, you find that out about him very early on because of his interaction with his daughter.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

Yeah. But I guess I guess yeah, I'm just i w was it because you sort of saw similarities and traits between those characters that you sort of saw that as a I think it's yeah, it was more like some similarity, and uh but honestly for Jules it was more uh like it was more like a reference uh in terms of technique, just technique style, yeah. So yeah, uh but actually Leo, uh our VFX artist is my main references for uh hairstyles, so we do have good air gene in uh in the company as well. Like, for example, my hair my hair uh are uh like also the main uh references sometimes I just took and I do some haircuts, like for example, the double bund hair for Verso is just me playing around with my own hair, and uh I was happy to make the design.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:01

So that's great that you can that's something you can just sort of do from work from home, right? You've got your hair, you can sort of play with it, you know. Um yeah, so he's got a wall, and again, that's interesting. There's the contrast there between him and then obviously the the I I forget the you know, the son who's sort of very you know, obviously doesn't have a beard and very young and you know um those you know, again, the counterparts. Um yeah, anyone else that that that you just sort of regard as not not necessarily an inspiration, but just other other um loved hairstyles in video games.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:38

Uh I don't have anyone in mind right now because for me it was I I felt really fell in love with Lightning Air in Final Fantasy XIII. Like that's I think that's one of the games when I just realized okay, maybe maybe I want to work in video games, and maybe I want to do character in video games. Well, I end up uh making uh hair which is even better. So yeah, I think lightning is yeah, she is one of my uh childhood favorite characters.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:13

Why what is it about her that sort of um because obviously it's not just the hair, it's it's sort of like that's the shell of what's embodying there's something that she embodies, right, that you're kinda drawn to, attracted to.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

I think it's like the she's like this strong woman, and when I was a child I uh didn't really had the opportunity to do well to sorry to play a lot of strong female character and lightning one was of the first video games when she was the main character and she was like this strong, mysterious main character. So I think this is why I fell in love with uh with her.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:50

Hmm. I guess that's must be nice that you've then and obviously you know, over time there's been an increase in strong female characters. There's always room for more, but you know, the likes of Ellie, or you know, and then obviously you've been able to then contribute to you know being a part of the team that's given the world like not just one, but like three more, like or four, you know, many, many actually, just within that game. Um female characters that really do like stand alone in and of themselves, and and as as as as much as we love their hair, there's obviously so much more to them than just yeah, of course, like really like uh there is like a minor detail.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:32

Uh but uh yeah, I'm happy if you feel like uh we we we did that.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:38

Oh, big time. I mean, I just again it on it sounds like I'm exaggerating, but it almost sort of makes one my sort of heart hurt for how much I love those those characters, you know. Um you know when sometimes and it's something I don't feel so much anymore as an adult because I think when you're younger, you know, I remember watching things like Indiana Jones and like it's it sometimes hurt how badly I wished that I could sort of hang out with in Indiana Jones, you know. Um, you know, and that that that there was always gonna be this disconnect because I was obviously a fictional character.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:11

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:12

But but there is just something about about them, you know, and the visceral nature of their time together around the campfire. Um that's um yeah, I haven't been able to have that sort of a stronger reaction, I think, to to characters in and I I still have strong reactions to characters, probably Joel and Ellie is a really good example of of that. Um but yeah, there's something very special there.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:42

Yeah, I agree because as a as a player that that is that is what I felt because uh obviously I didn't write uh the character personality, so I same I was so happy to fell in love with uh Gustave and Mel Connection, uh versus and Mel uh connection as well, and uh everyone uh just putting so much effort in this like miserable journey that uh they are leading.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:11

And again, I can tell it's a game that was made with absolute love, and I think that must be one of the reasons it's had such resounding success. So you know, I'm I'm sure you're very happy that you got to be a contributing part of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:23

Yeah, definitely, like uh so so happy. Like this year was like crazy. We we had so much like events, like just going to LA for like game award. I wasn't expecting that as a child to even like attend the game award. So being uh Yeah, it's crazy.